Side switching from Allied to Japanese during single player game (Full Version)

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Badger -> Side switching from Allied to Japanese during single player game (9/15/2002 5:25:20 AM)

I am playing a game as the Allies against the AI. When I end the Orders phase and then go thru the Execution phase, the next turn starts with me as the Japanese player. I have tried it a couple of times, and it happens the same way every time. I will send a copy of the save game file to Ross Moorhouse.



Badger -> (9/15/2002 6:10:11 AM)

An update -

I ran the execution phase three times and got the same results every time. At the end of the execution phase, I had switched to the Japanese side. I saved the game and rebooted my computer to see if the problem would occur again. Unfortunately it did not. Also, when I load the saved game file that I saved after I had switched to the Japanese side, the game comes back with me as the Allied side.

This is weird enough, but there is something else. Now, when I run the execution phase from the saved game before the side switch occurred, the combat results are different from when the side switch occurred. Also, if I quit the game and reload the saved game file, the combat report is different the first three times I run the execution phase. After the third reload, the combat report is the same each time.

I will send both files to Ross Moorhouse. If you need any additional information, let me know.



Badger -> (9/15/2002 7:33:50 AM)

Final update.

I can recreate this side switching bug every time. After I load a PBEM save I have and then load my single player game, I switch sides every time I run the executation phase.



XPav -> (9/16/2002 1:27:43 PM)

Send it to Matrix (instructions are in the top of the thread list).



Badger -> (9/16/2002 10:29:43 PM)

I sent the file to Ross Moorhouse, but I got an auto reply that he was out of the office on vacation until September 24th. So I also sent the files to [email]erikr@matrixgames.com[/email] and [email]jabgamer@2by3games.com[/email] as Mike Wood recommended in a similar thread about side switching in PBEM games.



Joel Billings -> (9/22/2002 2:19:25 AM)

This is what I got from Mike to explain your situation:

When you play a PBEM game and do not have the settings set to "Human vs. Human", the program sets it automatically. If you then wish to play a "Human vs. Computer" or some other kind of game, you need to change the settings in the main control panel.



Wilhammer -> (9/22/2002 4:22:05 AM)

Yes, I always thought this was a bug, until I realized in Human vs. AI, whenever you start a saved game, the human player is defaulted to the Allied side.

It is a pain. It is another irritating mouse click you have to go through to enjoy this fine game.



Badger -> (9/23/2002 2:34:04 AM)

That explains why I switched sides to the Japanese, but it does not explain why the combat results were different.

If I loaded a PBEM game first and then ran the execution phase, the combat results were different then when I did not load the PBEM game first.

Also, if I ran the execution phase without loading the PBEM game first, and then loaded the same game again and ran the execution phase again, the combat results were different than the first time I ran the execution phase.

I thought the random number generator was seeded at the start of the game, and that no matter how many times you ran an execution phase, the combat results would always be the same. I can get three different results from the same execution phase depending what I do before I run the execution phase. Interestingly though, the three different combat results are exactly repeatable.



HARD_SARGE -> (9/24/2002 5:59:43 AM)

Hi Badger

I thought the random number generator was seeded at the start of the game, and that no matter how many times you ran an execution phase, the combat results would always be the same.

ah I think you misunderstand what will happen in the turn, the seed is indeed set, and the turn should run close to what happened each time, but it is still a fresh turn, that shell that went though the Ammo Mag and blew the ship apart, this turn, may still hit, but only take out the cooks stove the next time around, what happended during the turn should happen each time, but the outcome may/should be different each time around

HARD_Sarge



XPav -> (9/24/2002 6:39:43 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Badger
[B]I can get three different results from the same execution phase depending what I do before I run the execution phase. Interestingly though, the three different combat results are exactly repeatable. [/B][/QUOTE]

Of course. If you scuttled all your ships, would you expect the combat to be the same?

I don't mean to pick on you here, but there is massive confusion in any forum (like the Civ3 forum) about exactly what random number seeding can do.

Think of it this way.

A computer doesn't have random numbers.
Imagine a series of fixed numbers infinitely long.
Imagine that a computer has a whole bunch of these series.
Now, pick one of these series and remember which one it is and which number you're looking at. Each time you need a "random number", you get the next number from the series.

(Now, there are ways to get better random numbers on PCs, but they're mainly used for important things, like encryption purposes).



Yamamoto -> (9/24/2002 9:51:06 PM)

I liked the way the Atari 800 created random numbers. It read the static charge on a piece of internal circuitry and took like the fourth or fifth decimal place value. It was small enough that it was always changing, hence random. I hate this table lookup business. Even worse is using the pc clock. I remember one game that did that. My friend’s clock wasn’t working and he complained that he ALWAYS got the same result.

In UV, aren’t the random numbers set at the beginning of the TURN and not the beginning of the GAME, as mentioned above in this thread? It is my understanding that the random numbers are generated when the Allied player saves his turn.

Yamamoto



denisonh -> Random Numbers (9/25/2002 2:43:44 AM)

Every quality random number generator works of a sequence of uniformly distributed numbers between 0 and 1. That is the heart of every random genrator.

The way that they become random is the way the seed is generated (and if necessary, transformed into a different distribution).

If you don't use a base list, then you are not guarenteeing a uniform distribution (important).

Now the sequence should have something very large, say 10 to the 32nd power numbers to prevent repeating of sequences.



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