Area Weapons (Full Version)

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Grave -> Area Weapons (3/4/2011 8:50:02 PM)

I want to try new game with main accent on area weapons. Ashamed to admit, but I don't know how it exactly works.
Area weapons affects in the same way on all ships? Enemy, frendly, own fighters? All types of area weapons?



Data -> RE: Area Weapons (3/4/2011 9:05:00 PM)

afaik they all do affect all ships, no matter if they're enemy, friendly or allies....so definitly watch out for angry friends if they get caught in the lines of fire [:)]



Grave -> RE: Area Weapons (3/4/2011 9:20:14 PM)

And ship with area weapon and fighters will damage their own fighters (when they take off for battle) too?



Kayoz -> RE: Area Weapons (3/4/2011 9:43:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grave

And ship with area weapon and fighters will damage their own fighters (when they take off for battle) too?


I'm not sure on that one - perhaps Data has some info. From what I've seen, fighters don't seem to be affected by AoE weapons.



Data -> RE: Area Weapons (3/4/2011 10:29:30 PM)

This was not tested for this combo before. I've fired up a game and used the editor to setup a test; the fighters are not affected by their own carrier aoe weaponry.

Don't have time to test now if the same applies when aoe weapons are fired from a different ship than the carrier but still our own; will test this also tommorow.



frugaldude -> RE: Area Weapons (3/5/2011 1:00:44 AM)

Thanks Data.  Good research.



Raap -> RE: Area Weapons (3/5/2011 1:16:10 AM)

I had the great idea once of putting the super-AoE weapon on all my ships. Needless to say, my fleet of 20 ships destroyed itself as soon as it met the enemy. After that, no more AoE weapons for me.



Grave -> RE: Area Weapons (3/5/2011 5:41:34 AM)

Data, thank you, it is very helpful.

Maybe we need new component in DW? Something like area weapon subsystem "friend-or-foe".
Otherwise destructive area weapons is not very attractive to use.

Anyway, in my next game I try to build much of big ships with area weapons and fighters onboard.

Intresting, why fighters are not affected by their own carrier area weaponry. Bug or feature?



Data -> RE: Area Weapons (3/5/2011 6:36:35 AM)

since other friendly ships are I would say bug, friend-or-foe has been requested. You can wishlist it as well to have more requests for it.
I had the same experience as Raap and never used them but even like they are now you can find uses for them



Kayoz -> RE: Area Weapons (3/5/2011 6:55:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Data

since other friendly ships are I would say bug, friend-or-foe has been requested. You can wishlist it as well to have more requests for it.
I had the same experience as Raap and never used them but even like they are now you can find uses for them


I didn't quite understand that.

Did you find that fighters are not being hit by AoE weapons - regardless of which side they're on?



Bingeling -> RE: Area Weapons (3/5/2011 8:23:23 AM)

It is silly if area weapons don't affect fighters. Of course they should obliterate everything. The ship/station firing the weapon should consider itself lucky if it escapes...

I wonder if a reason for the distance the AI puts between defensive bases and the space port is in part the area weapon range. I have discovered this issue in a game where I got the big nasty area weapon and an enemy fleet actually attacked a colony with a defensive base too close to the space port...

A tactic for a powerful space port should be to kill everything that gets up close with the area weapon, and release a swarm of fighters to kill off anything that tries to hang around outside the area weapon's range. I have seen AI fleets kill AI space ports by having longer range weapons (standoff). A swarm of fighters would solve that issue if powerful enough.

Station fighters could still survive the area weapon. They could fly out before the weapon is fired. And some AI work could ensure that they are wise enough to stay away from both friendly space stations and defensive bases that have area weapons.

I have not played enough to test all, but unlike 175 destroyers:
[image]http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h426/Bingeling/Swarm/Part4/Attack.jpg[/image]

The small guys from 40 fighter bays carried by the 20 cruisers of my next attempt appeared to kill those enemies quite nicely. At least I seem to remember the arrival of my fighters to cause a sudden huge red part on the enemy overhead bars. I never got a third attempt to kill that fleet [8D]



Howard Mitchell -> RE: Area Weapons (3/5/2011 9:00:34 AM)

I only use area weapons for two things:

1. Lone capital ships which go on Pirate base demolition missions on their own. Quite effective, but for the size and energy used by the area weapons you could fit equally effective single target weapons.

2. Spaceports and defensive bases. The range of area weapons is such that if you build additional bases round a colony at the maximum distance they are out of area weapon range of each other if you don't build to many. The standard quartet of defensive bases built by the AI round a home world are safe from each other for example.

I don't think I have ever seen any fighter affected by any area weapon, friendly or otherwise. This may be a design feature as otherwise they wouldn't last long, not being very robust compared to even the weakest ship. I'll watch closer next time.

I must admit I don't find area weapons very useful as there is always a risk of fratricide. My own space ports have blown up ships they have just finished building, my own freighters and mining ships just undocking etc. when using area weapons.

A friend-or-foe identification system would be a two-edged sword. There are times when you would want to damage friendly ships, and times when you wouldn't, and getting the balance right would be difficult. Imagine your spaceport not firing its collection of devastating area weapons as an invasion fleet slowed down to drop its troops off because an obsolete friendly frigate was in the way. You could always have the effect only apply to ships not in your empire, but it stretches the imagination to think of all your lowly freighters carrying an IFF system that an enemy couldn't then steal.



Bingeling -> RE: Area Weapons (3/5/2011 10:55:20 AM)

Making a proper area weapon decision system would not be that easy. I could make a decent judgement based on the threat of the incoming fleet and the profit of killing it. If my space port and defensive bases pack area weapons I would consider among other things:

1: Can I kill the ships with single target weapons?
2: Would they be able do land enough troops to threaten the control of the colony if the area weapon is not fired?
3: Would the area weapon be enough to make a difference?
4: Would the area weapon kill something of mine that would not otherwise die?
5: Is it really important that my stuff is not killed?
6: Even if they can not take the colony, would it be worth it to kill their ships at the expense of something of my own to get rid of the fleet?

And I may forget something. Some of these are maybe not that hard to code. But if the space port is good at judging their chances, the attacking fleet should be too. And the space port would only be attacked if the area weapons would be needed.

Point 5 and 6 are quite hard, but point 5 is usually quite insignificant when a well defended colony is threatened. Point 6 is the greater strategic view which the AI is clearly not good at. If the AI were as good at building ships and had as much available funds as I often have, killing of the fleet would not help much.



ggf31416 -> RE: Area Weapons (3/5/2011 5:03:56 PM)

Another problem of area weapons is that they often fire at maximum range where they do less than 20% of their stated damage even if the ship is configured to fight at point blank, with friendly ships closer so they do more damage to friendly ships than to enemy ships and they will take a long time to reload.

I think the criteria should be the damage to enemy vs damage to friendly ships based in their instant positions without taking into account the reduced damage effect of armor and possibly countermeasures. Then allow the use to select the maximum friendly/enemy damage ratio: 0% (Don't fire if friendly ship in range), 50%, 100%, 150%, 200%, Always.

Also it should be possible to configure the weapons to don't fire until the damage loss from distance is below some percentage.





tiagocc0 -> RE: Area Weapons (1/26/2012 12:30:01 PM)

If area weapons cause friendly fire, then a ship shooting a laser weapon should hit the ship that is between it and the target.
It's ridiculous to have a area weapon that hit friendly ships because:
1. You can't control when to shoot
2. You can't control the radius of the weapon
3. If ship design automation is on it will put area weapons on it
4. AI will use area weapons and blow itself up

Being the last reason the most important, I don't want to play a game where the AI kills itself
It's broken and should be removed from the game, or should remove friendly fire and make it less powerful
There's no other alternative



jpwrunyan -> RE: Area Weapons (1/26/2012 1:50:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiagocc0

If area weapons cause friendly fire, then a ship shooting a laser weapon should hit the ship that is between it and the target.
It's ridiculous to have a area weapon that hit friendly ships because...


You exhibit 2-dimensional thinking.



tiagocc0 -> RE: Area Weapons (1/26/2012 2:04:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan


quote:

ORIGINAL: tiagocc0

If area weapons cause friendly fire, then a ship shooting a laser weapon should hit the ship that is between it and the target.
It's ridiculous to have a area weapon that hit friendly ships because...


You exhibit 2-dimensional thinking.


Great argument. It's you who exhibit 2-dimensional thinking.

If a area weapon causes friendly fire and all other weapons in the entire game do not, then there's something wrong here. Why want it to realisticly cause friendly fire yet all other weapons unrealisticly never cause it?



Jerkface -> RE: Area Weapons (1/27/2012 5:50:06 PM)


quote:

Great argument. It's you who exhibit 2-dimensional thinking.

If a area weapon causes friendly fire and all other weapons in the entire game do not, then there's something wrong here. Why want it to realisticly cause friendly fire yet all other weapons unrealisticly never cause it?

< Message edited by tiagocc0 -- 1/26/2012 2:05:28 PM >


You cant grok the difference between an aimed rifle and a hand grenade with regards to friendly fire?
Yikes.



tiagocc0 -> RE: Area Weapons (1/27/2012 5:56:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jerkface


quote:

Great argument. It's you who exhibit 2-dimensional thinking.

If a area weapon causes friendly fire and all other weapons in the entire game do not, then there's something wrong here. Why want it to realisticly cause friendly fire yet all other weapons unrealisticly never cause it?

< Message edited by tiagocc0 -- 1/26/2012 2:05:28 PM >


You cant grok the difference between an aimed rifle and a hand grenade with regards to friendly fire?
Yikes.


Aimed rifle?
Okay you get 200 ships between your ship and your target, but you are never going to hit any of them.
It's not about what kind of weapon, it's about one of them is never going to hit a friend.
It would be okay if the AI could handle it, but it can't.

Sure let's play the great game where you have grenades but the enemy AI always throw it at his own feet. No, we can't take the grenade away because that's what grenades do! Sure, let's have ships that throw grenades, but they always do it at point zero.

Yes, it's very funny to have a grenade like weapon that's always throw at it's own feet, hurray!



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