Limit the number of colonies per empire (Full Version)

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tornnight -> Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/9/2011 1:48:43 AM)

I wonder they have ever considered putting in some way to limit the number of colonies useable in an empire.

For example one of the following:

1. Increasing costs and tax drain as the number of colonies increases.
2. Distance dramatically reduces the revenue supplied by the colony
3. New colonies have a large negative tax drain on the empire until they grow sufficiently
4. Hard limit on number of colonies, gated by new technologies in the tech tree.

All of these are used by 4x games and create a more interesting and bounded game in my opinion. If done correctly, people who like to expand for the hell of it still can but with extremely reduced benefit except for the strategic aspect.



thiosk -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/9/2011 4:16:43 AM)

Hard limits I don't like. Tax restrictions, a la Civ IV I am also against; they seem so artificial. I actually don't like how they are generally implemented.

In the far future, EVERYTHING is far away, plus distance costs are covered by the fuel system.

I've long campaigned that planets of all sizes should require huge quantities of strategic resources to develop, and then a more modest quantity to maintain themselves. For instance, you need a gigaton of steel, polymer, and carbon fibre per development point. You would then need 10 megatons of each to maintain each point of that development per unit time. In this way, fast expansion is restricted, as you need a strong industrial base and an aggressive resource acquisition network to keep expansion moving forward. Plus, the universe would seem more alive, as you have incredible amounts of traffic carrying the otherwise worthless elements around. Last, trading agreements with other empires may then actually be more valuable in certain cases than glassing them and planting your own colonies.



Data -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/9/2011 7:35:35 AM)

I like also this idea but I wonder how badly would the AI fail at this. Maybe it should compensate somehow or otherwise it may end up not expanding enough.



Bingeling -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/9/2011 9:35:15 AM)

I'd think...

Corruption is the anti large factor of the game.
War weariness and people not liking war with own species are the anti conquer factor of the game.

I find any need for excessive external supplies for colonies silly. Today the humans know how to live on continental planets. Have you happened to notice any major mainstay of development not being present here? Planets (and moons) have population caps by size and quality. What do you think quality is? The presence of materials, and the easy of producing food, of course.

A continental planet is not just a collection of stone and water. It is something earth like, green stuff. What does happen to green stuff after a while? It is buried. What happens to buried green stuff after a long while? It becomes oil. What are polymers made of? Oil. What are carbon fiber? Fiber of carbon. What is carbon? The core of anything organic. What is organic? Green stuff and animals...

What are planet resources? Excesses. "This place has an incredible excess of steel", iron is found wherever you look. Have you noticed gas giants with no resources? Sure, those are the gas giants that are too hard to get the stuff out of to bother. Not all gas giants have the nice stuff you need, but they all are made of something. And something can be used for... something.

We research colonization tech. If we need to supply everything we need, why would we need colonization tech?



Wreck -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/9/2011 4:25:02 PM)

I like thiosk's idea. 

To Bingeling, it is true that a colony should be able to bootstrap itself -- eventually.  But it should take imports to get it to happen quickly.  This is no different than here on Earth -- if you are building, say, a new subdivision, you don't go there and set up a lumbermill, quarry, cement plant, etc.  You bring in all the materials other than a small amount of dirt, perhaps, that you get on-site.  You also bring in all the tools necessary for construction. 



Bingeling -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/9/2011 4:49:40 PM)

You arrive with a colony ship. It carries equipment and is butchered for an easy start. They are societies advanced enough to travel the stars.

Bootstrapping is a problem if you want to colonize Mars. but we lack desert colonization, so that won't work anyways. We will have to tick to a mining base in orbit. Maybe a large one, though, a custom space port.

What can be discussed is the size of the migration fleet. 10M at start. That is quite a lot, and require quite some food early on. I guess they planned for that. But who says all 10M are woken at the same time? They seem to breed while asleep though, that is an issue ;-)

If you want to make colonization harder, increase the colonization ship cost and build times. Build times were changed, I think.

How much you bring also depend on where you build. If it just a bit down the road, you bring along more stuff than if you are to build on Mars...

But forum dreams are OK, I just hope Elliot and Matrix holds focus on the game, for the most important thing is the game. The game has some issues, but is great fun. Change the game with great care.



thiosk -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/10/2011 4:00:13 AM)

Yes, just a dream on my end, and Gameplay considerations trump everything. If something is unfun, the designers should never include it.

I simply like the idea of ramping the Xploit factor way up. Make that industrial expansion mean something, and make it so attacking industry and mining be as crippling as attacking colonies. I have a whole separate set of feelings about ship building and ship build times.

What I have stated is that i want is a more simulationy game. Then I found this "Aurora" game that is a hardcore bonkers insanity 4x simulation game that seems to be somewhat like dwarven fortress with spreadsheets.

We'll see if I'm singing a different tune in three weeks after I've finished the tutorial.



Texashawk -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/10/2011 5:16:18 AM)

Boy, are you in for a treat. [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: thiosk

Yes, just a dream on my end, and Gameplay considerations trump everything. If something is unfun, the designers should never include it.

I simply like the idea of ramping the Xploit factor way up. Make that industrial expansion mean something, and make it so attacking industry and mining be as crippling as attacking colonies. I have a whole separate set of feelings about ship building and ship build times.

What I have stated is that i want is a more simulationy game. Then I found this "Aurora" game that is a hardcore bonkers insanity 4x simulation game that seems to be somewhat like dwarven fortress with spreadsheets.

We'll see if I'm singing a different tune in three weeks after I've finished the tutorial.



Bingeling -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/10/2011 5:59:58 AM)

I so agree with the last one... You are in for a treat.

Just a little story from a game.

You play a game with galaxy in Islands, and have stolen a halfway planet that is very rich. You know from experience that fuel shortages are not fun, so when you wage war in the cluster on the other side, you blast every gas man you can find. And then some. But war ends, at least when I am in charge, and when war ends trade continues like before (no trade sanction).

So what happens at the gas mine that luckily was placed in that halfway point system? Well, it does not have anything like the fuel required to top up a fleet anymore, nor that large space port. Why? Because as it digs out caslon, the cargo is reserved by your former enemies... That are out of gas mines for some odd reason. So you get fuel issues on your own because you killed the mines of your enemies [&o]

It wasn't that bad in this game, as I had enough fuel further back, but it is so utterly cool when you strategy comes back to bite you in some way. The bit scary thing is that this is probably to my advantage still. I can get my fuel where I want (with a source). Resupply ships don't trade, and as far as I know I can even have multiples of those on a planet/cloud (plus a gas mine).




Shark7 -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/11/2011 2:17:50 PM)

I'm against this. Conquering the known galaxy is the reason I play...but only conquer once you have an economic base to work with.



tjhkkr -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/11/2011 2:59:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I'm against this. Conquering the known galaxy is the reason I play...but only conquer once you have an economic base to work with.


I am not liking the sound of that either... I am not out to crush everything, but I want opponents who are... :)



Data -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/11/2011 3:36:09 PM)

Well put, tj, let's keep as many options open as possible



solops -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/11/2011 4:04:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tornnight

I wonder they have ever considered putting in some way to limit the number of colonies useable in an empire.

For example one of the following:

1. Increasing costs and tax drain as the number of colonies increases.
2. Distance dramatically reduces the revenue supplied by the colony
3. New colonies have a large negative tax drain on the empire until they grow sufficiently
4. Hard limit on number of colonies, gated by new technologies in the tech tree.

All of these are used by 4x games and create a more interesting and bounded game in my opinion. If done correctly, people who like to expand for the hell of it still can but with extremely reduced benefit except for the strategic aspect.



No.

I dislike almost all of these proposals, especially hard limits, however regulated.
The game already includes mechanisms for #1, #2 and #3, which I have to work hard to "mod" down to an acceptable level.



Shark7 -> RE: Limit the number of colonies per empire (3/11/2011 4:40:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I'm against this. Conquering the known galaxy is the reason I play...but only conquer once you have an economic base to work with.


I am not liking the sound of that either... I am not out to crush everything, but I want opponents who are... :)


Everybody plays different. If you put in hard limits, you limit my fun factor. If anything is done, it should always be an option, not a hard limit.



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