Zero Bonus nerfed? (Full Version)

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RUPD3658 -> Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/12/2011 8:09:20 PM)

I am playing Scn 1 vs the AI on very hard and my Zeros are getting shredded by Buffaloes and P-40s. Often I attack at a 2:1 ratio and at best exchange losses 1:1. Even pure fighter sweeps of 50 zeros vs 25 P-40s suffer the same. This is 12/41 so it will only get worse from here.

Is this due to the AI getting an advantage in die rolls or has the Zero been nerfed? This would be good to know before I try a PBEM.



Nomad -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/12/2011 8:15:31 PM)

There is no "Zero Bonus" in AE.



Alfred -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/12/2011 8:15:34 PM)

There is no Zero "bonus". Instead pilot experience and relevant skills replace that classical WITP concept.

Alfred



hunchback77 -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/12/2011 8:16:02 PM)

They don't call it WITP Allied Edition for nothing. Train, Train, Train, thats all the bonus that's left for the Japanese. Make sure your pilots are better than his or you'll get shot down in droves.



Alfred -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/12/2011 8:19:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hunchback77

They don't call it WITP Allied Edition for nothing. Train, Train, Train, thats all the bonus that's left for the Japanese. Make sure your pilots are better than his or you'll get shot down in droves.


I presume that was said very much with tongue in cheek. If meant as a serious observation, it is extremely misleading.

Alfred



bradfordkay -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/12/2011 9:05:20 PM)

Yep... there is no arbitrary "Zero bonus" in AE. Instead the Japanese pilots start out with substantially better experience. 



Rainer -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/12/2011 10:34:38 PM)

quote:

They don't call it WITP Allied Edition for nothing


Misleading newbies and driving away potential customers. Well done ...

BTW, who is "They"?



witpqs -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/12/2011 10:58:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

quote:

They don't call it WITP Allied Edition for nothing


Misleading newbies and driving away potential customers. Well done ...

BTW, who is "They"?


Certainly nobody who knows what they are talking about. There is no systematic bias in AE.



Chickenboy -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/12/2011 11:05:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Yep... there is no arbitrary "Zero bonus" in AE. Instead the Japanese pilots start out with substantially better experience. 

The new way to handle this is much improved, IMO. The hard coding of the zero bonus was an annoying anachronism. Having experienced pilots with an advantage is much more elegant.



DeriKuk -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/12/2011 11:49:52 PM)

quote:

The hard coding of the zero bonus was an annoying anachronism.


I wish the "magic elves" will remove similar hard-code biases in the submarine and ASW routines. The aerial ASW is so broken that my PBEM opponent and I have resorted to house rules to make the game resemble WW2 in some form.

[Goofs who play only short scenarios need not comment. ] [:-]



Nikademus -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/12/2011 11:51:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

I am playing Scn 1 vs the AI on very hard and my Zeros are getting shredded by Buffaloes and P-40s. Often I attack at a 2:1 ratio and at best exchange losses 1:1. Even pure fighter sweeps of 50 zeros vs 25 P-40s suffer the same. This is 12/41 so it will only get worse from here.

Is this due to the AI getting an advantage in die rolls or has the Zero been nerfed? This would be good to know before I try a PBEM.



Very hard setting gives the AI combat bonuses.




Terminus -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 12:17:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

quote:

They don't call it WITP Allied Edition for nothing


Misleading newbies and driving away potential customers. Well done ...

BTW, who is "They"?


Certainly nobody who knows what they are talking about. There is no systematic bias in AE.


Well, fanbois will be fanbois.



rockmedic109 -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 1:15:43 AM)

Was the Zero a better plane in December 1941 than it was in July 1942?



witpqs -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 1:40:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

Was the Zero a better plane in December 1941 than it was in July 1942?


I think he was referring to folks claiming that AE is "Allied Edition".



Misconduct -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 3:28:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

Was the Zero a better plane in December 1941 than it was in July 1942?


Zero is still a zero when your experience is below 65. Mustang or P-80 or not, a Zero will shoot you down if he has 90 exp and you have 50.



RUPD3658 -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 3:49:18 AM)

Example:

Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 36 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 82
G4M1 Betty x 20



Allied aircraft
P-26A x 7
P-35A x 8
P-40B Warhawk x 9
P-40E Warhawk x 25


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-35A: 1 destroyed
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed
O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 22



treespider -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 4:04:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

Example:

Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 36 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 82
G4M1 Betty x 20



Allied aircraft
P-26A x 7
P-35A x 8
P-40B Warhawk x 9
P-40E Warhawk x 25


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-35A: 1 destroyed
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed
O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 22



Try sweeping with the Zero's for a day or three...then escorting the bombers.



Sredni -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 5:10:21 AM)

Fighters on escort typically preform poorly in air to air combat, I dunno why. I've often had escorting fighters that very much outnumber the defending cap get their asses handed to them.

But you're right, those results do look odd. My fighters in manilla certainly never managed to preform anywhere near as well as that. They pretty much got slaughtered while whimpering home to mama.

Could just be luck, or altitude, or even just fog of war you're seeing (in regards to his losses).



DeriKuk -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 5:18:29 AM)

Exploit the single most decisive factor in air combat in AE:Altitude.

Do it repeatedly and shamelessly. [:D]



EUBanana -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 12:27:08 PM)

The Japanese clean house in the first few months with Zeroes anyway.

Sweep often, sweep at high altitude so you are always above the P40s. Escort in AE basically means you are sacrificing fighters to let bombers get through, its usually better to soften up with some massive sweeps a day or two first.

Also the Allied service ratings are much worse than Japanese so a few days of sweeps, even if you dont shoot much down (though you will) will leave a lot of damaged Allied airframes on the deck to be bombed.

And finally, numbers really matter. I imagine even 100 Nates sweeping 20 P40Es would do some damage... just make sure you mass and send over Zeroes in huge waves.



Tullius -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 1:18:40 PM)

quote:

There is no systematic bias in AE.


That`s right because fanboys of both sides have found ways to introduce their myths and likings in the game mechanics (despite all great improvents except the strategical AI which is now weaker) and so we have sometimes not realistic results in both ways.



treespider -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 2:03:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tullius

quote:

There is no systematic bias in AE.


That`s right because fanboys of both sides have found ways to introduce their myths and likings in the game mechanics (despite all great improvents except the strategical AI which is now weaker) and so we have sometimes not realistic results in both ways.



Please elaborate...



Erkki -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 2:59:52 PM)

I have a 25,000 alt limit in my PBEM. It is February 42, and I feel like I have already lost the war in the air. Doesnt matter how bad I outnumber the Hurries and Hawks, my hordes of Hayabusas and Zeroes(I have hand picked the pilots, every single one flying Zeroes is 70+ EXP, Hayabusas 65+), cant get a shot in, cant destroy them, nothing. Last fight, I had Zeroes outnumber a lone, damaged hawk 6 on 1, that Hawk managed to damage one Zero and shoot one down. Zeroes just damaged it. I dont feel them any disadvantage for having liquid cooled engines, worse service rating or presumably worse pilots.

Now 8 days of constant air combat, Japanese(sweeping Rangoon/Moulmein) typically outnumber the British 2:1 up to 4:1, but they still suffer K/D below 1. What exactly can I do differently, apart from exploiting higher ceiling? I cycle the units so they all still have morale above 75 and average fatigue below 20. I know that in the long run I can attrit those aircraft types, but as the war progresses, this will only get worse. Cant wait to meet 4Es, P-38s and P-47s!

Funny to see 30 Hurricanes strafe my troops, kill 200 men and lose just 1 plane against 4 full divisions when my 60 Ki-48s bombing at 10,000 for 3 days fail to kill a single man. Those troops are stuck at Moulmein because they cant push the brits back. War lost in Feb 42. No wonder people play Scen 2?!?



Misconduct -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 3:23:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

I have a 25,000 alt limit in my PBEM. It is February 42, and I feel like I have already lost the war in the air. Doesnt matter how bad I outnumber the Hurries and Hawks, my hordes of Hayabusas and Zeroes(I have hand picked the pilots, every single one flying Zeroes is 70+ EXP, Hayabusas 65+), cant get a shot in, cant destroy them, nothing. Last fight, I had Zeroes outnumber a lone, damaged hawk 6 on 1, that Hawk managed to damage one Zero and shoot one down. Zeroes just damaged it. I dont feel them any disadvantage for having liquid cooled engines, worse service rating or presumably worse pilots.

Now 8 days of constant air combat, Japanese(sweeping Rangoon/Moulmein) typically outnumber the British 2:1 up to 4:1, but they still suffer K/D below 1. What exactly can I do differently, apart from exploiting higher ceiling? I cycle the units so they all still have morale above 75 and average fatigue below 20. I know that in the long run I can attrit those aircraft types, but as the war progresses, this will only get worse. Cant wait to meet 4Es, P-38s and P-47s!

Funny to see 30 Hurricanes strafe my troops, kill 200 men and lose just 1 plane against 4 full divisions when my 60 Ki-48s bombing at 10,000 for 3 days fail to kill a single man. Those troops are stuck at Moulmein because they cant push the brits back. War lost in Feb 42. No wonder people play Scen 2?!?


Its just horrible dice rolls, In my present game I'm averaging 9 to 1 kill ratio (dropping down to 7:1) as of August to October 42. Main reason its dropping off because my PBEM opponent is training the heck out of the pilots, then dropping them off to get slaughtered - any time 1 of his pilots gets a few kills he ships them back to the states. I been fortunate that I've been gaining the upper hand on the air war and ran out of targets around July'42
which allowed me to train and build more aircraft because I was losing to many bombers.

Dice works good in one way, others I hate it.




EUBanana -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 4:13:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

I have a 25,000 alt limit in my PBEM.


What altitude are the Hurris at? that said, they fly pretty damn high if they want.

There aren't enough of them though. In 1942 there isn't enough of anything for the Allies. Especially bombers, but fighters too.

quote:

Last fight, I had Zeroes outnumber a lone, damaged hawk 6 on 1, that Hawk managed to damage one Zero and shoot one down.


There's some oddities in the sytsem you will learn to recognise before too long - one of them is where a 25 plane Allied fighter squadron sweeps, and its always split up into 23 planes and 1 or 2 planes. And the 1 or 2 seem to always be ninjas, they are unshootable. You see 2 P40s dive into a nest of tojos, shoot one down and vanish. I think that is just a weird quirk, and it happens to both sides.

quote:

I dont feel them any disadvantage for having liquid cooled engines, worse service rating or presumably worse pilots.


The service rating is one reason why you are outnumbering them, probably - he's probably got a lot on the deck after 8 days fighting.

That said the service rating of 2 for the Hurris isnt that bad, its slightly worse than a Zero but not by much. Its the P38s with service rating 3 that are noticeably penalised by it. They are pretty worthless on CAP - though demons when sweeping.


quote:

Funny to see 30 Hurricanes strafe my troops, kill 200 men and lose just 1 plane against 4 full divisions when my 60 Ki-48s bombing at 10,000 for 3 days fail to kill a single man.


That might be a terrain thing, there's an enormous difference between clear terrain and everything else.



Erkki -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 4:28:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

I have a 25,000 alt limit in my PBEM.


What altitude are the Hurris at? that said, they fly pretty damn high if they want.


Both sides' fighters limited to 25k. The Hurris dont usually even get the dive. My fighters usually damage about 50% of them, but only few abort due to damage, and they keep fighting. And shooting...

quote:

quote:

Last fight, I had Zeroes outnumber a lone, damaged hawk 6 on 1, that Hawk managed to damage one Zero and shoot one down.


There's some oddities in the sytsem you will learn to recognise before too long - one of them is where a 25 plane Allied fighter squadron sweeps, and its always split up into 23 planes and 1 or 2 planes. And the 1 or 2 seem to always be ninjas, they are unshootable. You see 2 P40s dive into a nest of tojos, shoot one down and vanish. I think that is just a weird quirk, and it happens to both sides.


So far each day the sweeps have not arrived together, but one squad first. Today I saw my first combined sweeps, but it was the last sweep that met no Allied fighters.

One of my 45-strong Zero unit at Rabaul did sweep Port Moresby twice and kill somewhere around 36 P-40s for the loss of just 4. My opponent confirmed that the pilots weren't exactly the sharpest pencils in the box. Looks like with even reasonably even pilots fighting each other, Ki-43 and Zero are just cannon fodder.

quote:

That might be a terrain thing, there's an enormous difference between clear terrain and everything else.


Same hex, jungle (Moulmein). OTOH My EXP 35 bomber pilots in China get the perfect practice, bombing the Chinese units with no AAA in open hexes...



EUBanana -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 4:47:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki
Both sides' fighters limited to 25k. The Hurris dont usually even get the dive. My fighters usually damage about 50% of them, but only few abort due to damage, and they keep fighting. And shooting...


Hurris are one of very few fighters to have armour 2, so thats probably why - though I have to say, it doesn't make much difference really.

Here's an old observation of mine on the subject...

Over the last few days he's bombed Rangoon into the stone age and forced me to withdraw my bombers, and spread my fighters out to the other Burmese airfields. The one glint of hope is that the Hurricane seems to be quite an able fighter especially at high altitude, but 16 Hurricanes vs 50 Oscars, 50 Zeroes and 100-150 bombers just doesn't cut it.

quote:

One of my 45-strong Zero unit at Rabaul did sweep Port Moresby twice and kill somewhere around 36 P-40s for the loss of just 4. My opponent confirmed that the pilots weren't exactly the sharpest pencils in the box. Looks like with even reasonably even pilots fighting each other, Ki-43 and Zero are just cannon fodder.


Well, 36 P40s in one day, thats like a months worth in one day? I don't think you can really be complaining if you are butchering the Allies that badly!

Bear in mind how few a/c the Allies get. This still seems to be true to me well into 1943.

quote:

Same hex, jungle (Moulmein). OTOH My EXP 35 bomber pilots in China get the perfect practice, bombing the Chinese units with no AAA in open hexes...


That is weird.

Re. bombing, its better to train ground bombing up till you hit 70, and /then/ start bombing Chinese for experience. I'm pretty sure that training trains faster than combat - but only up to 70.



Erkki -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 4:58:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki
Both sides' fighters limited to 25k. The Hurris dont usually even get the dive. My fighters usually damage about 50% of them, but only few abort due to damage, and they keep fighting. And shooting...


Hurris are one of very few fighters to have armour 2, so thats probably why - though I have to say, it doesn't make much difference really.


Only Hurri IId seems to have armour 2. Kind of weird since the d version afaik was no different to other IIs in other than armament...

quote:

Here's an old observation of mine on the subject...

Over the last few days he's bombed Rangoon into the stone age and forced me to withdraw my bombers, and spread my fighters out to the other Burmese airfields. The one glint of hope is that the Hurricane seems to be quite an able fighter especially at high altitude, but 16 Hurricanes vs 50 Oscars, 50 Zeroes and 100-150 bombers just doesn't cut it.


Yeah I tried that, they got slaughtered and hit nothing, despite the numbers... Have attacked the port twice now, airfields 3 times, nil results. Worst day was when 150 bombers went through (0 defenders) to attack an unloading/loading transport TF off Moulmein, and scored 0 hits. Clear weather, at 10,000ft. 80 of them were Betties. [:(]

quote:

quote:

One of my 45-strong Zero unit at Rabaul did sweep Port Moresby twice and kill somewhere around 36 P-40s for the loss of just 4. My opponent confirmed that the pilots weren't exactly the sharpest pencils in the box. Looks like with even reasonably even pilots fighting each other, Ki-43 and Zero are just cannon fodder.


Well, 36 P40s in one day, thats like a months worth in one day? I don't think you can really be complaining if you are butchering the Allies that badly!

Bear in mind how few a/c the Allies get. This still seems to be true to me well into 1943.


I know I can attrit him for now, but looks like when it comes to plane quality, I cant challenge the Allies even in the very beginning. Early in the campaign, a 3-ship Blenheim attack 9 or 10 hex away got through the CAP of 6 Zeroes without a loss and put a bomb on CVL Ryujo. We have both made mistakes, but if Allies can now do 1:1 with "inferior" equipment, numbers and pilots, what will it be like in 43?!? This game takes so long I would like to have some fun with it too. [:(]

edit: sorry to hijack a threat and turn it into a rant.



EUBanana -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 5:24:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki
Only Hurri IId seems to have armour 2. Kind of weird since the d version afaik was no different to other IIs in other than armament...


You learn something new, every day...


quote:

Yeah I tried that, they got slaughtered and hit nothing, despite the numbers... Have attacked the port twice now, airfields 3 times, nil results. Worst day was when 150 bombers went through (0 defenders) to attack an unloading/loading transport TF off Moulmein, and scored 0 hits. Clear weather, at 10,000ft. 80 of them were Betties. [:(]


If that was with torpedoes, my mind boggles. In my experience Netties hitting transports practically can't miss.

Though I'm always shocked by how terrible the Allied inventory is at anti ship stuff - attack bombers are 'OK', but it's no match for the Japanese stuff.

Sounds like you had a lot of bad rolls. [:D]

quote:


I know I can attrit him for now, but looks like when it comes to plane quality, I cant challenge the Allies even in the very beginning.


I think P40s are the equal of the Zero, Hurricanes a bit less so - Oscars are a lot better in AE than they were in WITP, though, so that kinda makes up. But there are precious few of these top notch Allied aircraft, and in 1942 at least the bomber reinforcements is essentially zero - enough to cover ops losses and thats about it mostly.

I don't think kill ratios of 1:1 against the top line Allied fighters are either historically inaccurate or a disaster for the Japanese. 1:1 is plenty good for your purposes. Kill ratios are only really relevant when set against production numbers, IMO. Which means the Japanese have a decisive advantage until the P40K shows up.

I've actually experienced a couple of swings back and forth - the Tojo is very decisive for the Japanese, so that gained my honourable opponent about 4-6 months of more "kicking my butt time".

quote:


Early in the campaign, a 3-ship Blenheim attack 9 or 10 hex away got through the CAP of 6 Zeroes without a loss and put a bomb on CVL Ryujo.


That is surely just a fluke. In any case a 250lb bomb isn't going to seriously endanger Ryujo. If that was a Japanese torpedo then it would be a different story. [:D]

quote:

We have both made mistakes, but if Allies can now do 1:1 with "inferior" equipment, numbers and pilots, what will it be like in 43?!? This game takes so long I would like to have some fun with it too. [:(]


I dunno - what have you conquered so far? Thats the bottom line, the boots on the ground.

Yamamoto said Japan would have six months, and I think thats more or less accurate in the game - up until summer 1942 there is almost nothing the Allies can do, they simply don't have the troops.



EUBanana -> RE: Zero Bonus nerfed? (3/13/2011 5:25:34 PM)

And don't worry, I rant all the time.  [:'(]



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