Oleg's German supermen (Full Version)

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Zort -> Oleg's German supermen (3/12/2011 10:09:09 PM)

Now I must be a really poor German player. Have yet to take Leningrad. Have not gotten to Rostov. Have taken Orel, Kursk and Kharkov. But have been lucky I think to get to basically the historical german lines. Now Oleg has stated numerous times how supermen the Germans are. Hmmm, I have surrounded sov units and they won't surrender after multiple attacks. I have had the soviets make my panzer divs retreat.

Now yes the game doesn't allow for things like Brest to hold out for a month, now how would you get the rail lines thru if they could hold out. I think a lot of the ability for the sovs comes in the way they are defensively handled. So making them stronger or making the germans weaker would probably not allow for the germans to get as far. I don't know about anyone else but each time I have started a GC41 game, I as the germans have felt the need to push as hard as I can, the need to push those panzers past the point they should be. But if you make the russians stronger so they can destroy them sooner then why have a GC41 scenario.

I know I probably shouldn't be responding to Oleg but he has put have some good info. What I have seen in 4 GC41s against human players is the soviets get smarter and defend better. I might get almost as far but in worse shape, but I think I am getting better.

So are the germans supermen in 41, naaa, the russians are just really weak. A very good german player against an average soviet player should have an easy time. Is there room for improvement yep, but if the germans are weakened to the point that they can't push the panzers out then it becomes a WW1 game in the eastern front. Should there be a few more soviet divs that have good CV so they can do those couple of attacks that Oleg wants, maybe.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/12/2011 10:17:59 PM)

remind me to play you as the Soviet side sometime



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/12/2011 10:22:41 PM)

My germans are Super-Duper Supermen.

(Vee bring the verld dis order!)



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/12/2011 10:42:00 PM)

There are some good German players as of late, read the AARs by PDH (How to lose a war), Return to Smolensk by Scar and IdahoNY or AARs by Q-Ball. Edit: Ketza vs 76mm too. Leningrad is almost routinely taken by some of them. Go read them and tell me these are not supermen! [:D]

What makes those Germans supermen is not necesarilly how far they go or what cities they take, but the fact they are practically immune to counterattack. I am not saying isolation - you can isolate mechanized units, and if you're lucky and there is mud next turn - yay. However counterattacking Germans in summer is almost impossible. Incidentally there is a post about just that, in another therad started today:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2752873



Commanderski -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/12/2011 11:02:00 PM)

quote:

Currently summer and winter of 41 are very one sided affairs.
(quoted from my other post)

As they generally were in real life along with the summer and winter of '42. It wasn't until '43 that the Soviets could push the Germans back during warm weather. Their counter attacks in the Center and other areas definitely hurt the Germans in isolated areas but over the scope of the entire front it didn't slow them down enough where they couldn't make significant gains.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/12/2011 11:10:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

quote:

Currently summer and winter of 41 are very one sided affairs.
(quoted from my other post)

As they generally were in real life along with the summer and winter of '42.


Not as one sided as this game makes it to be. I am pretty sure that, with growing player skill from both sides, the community and developers will tend towards reducing "supermanism" on both sides, and giving both sides some chance of counterattacking.

I am patient, and am enjoying the game A LOT as it is. If the game never changes I will still play it and enjoy it. I just kinda predict where the game will go, and that sooner or later people will sorta-kinda agree with me [:D]

Someone mentioned that weakened sides could lead to WW1 game(s). That's possible, but then again as the game matures more and more people will wish to play a proper 41-45 campaign, not just expresso kill-murder-burn affairs we have now (we have yet to see a PBEM game starting in 41 that was playable till summer 42). So, some WW1-ization is actually welcome IMO.

Decisive, killer breakthroughs and encirclements should require tons of skill, not be a routine affairs we see now in most games played (from both sides, summer/winter etc).



Zort -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/12/2011 11:18:50 PM)

quote:

Incidentally there is a post about just that, in another therad started today:


Yea but didn't want to hijack that thread.

Not having read a lot on battle around Smolensk, but didn't the Germans finally surround and capture several hundred thousand at the end of the battle? I think a lot goes to command and control. Give the soviets more counterattacking capability but handicap them in a big way with bad C&C. That is how I look at the game now. They don't have the CV's to conduct good constant counterattacks because they have bad C&C. Can they now make the german life miserable yep.

Guess I better read the AAR's again. So far each of those hasn't shown me much I didn't know and didn't seem to have a soviet player who did as good a defense as has been done to me. Of course it could be just me.

Edit: Looking at some of the scenarios, when the germans send 3-4 panzer corps north I figure they should take Leningrad. Are you are saying that the germans are supermen if they mass large amounts of panzers and inf with SU's and can take Leningrad and the russian player defends the most vulnerable hex with the weakest stack? To me if the germans want Leningrad and commit large amounts to take it they probably should be able to take it. That is not supermen to me. Now if they can take it with just AGN against good soviet play then yes they are supermen.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/12/2011 11:34:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort
Guess I better read the AAR's again. So far each of those hasn't shown me much I didn't know and didn't seem to have a soviet player who did as good a defense as has been done to me. Of course it could be just me.


There really is not much a Soviet can do with his 1=1 ants to make "good" or "bad" defense. It's all up to German player in the opening months. I mean, I played what appear to be good and bad Soviet games (make it excellent and atrocious, really). Looking at some of those AARs it might appear I am very good or very bad Soviet player but really I am neither. I only do what German allows me to do by not being aggressive enough!

If the German is super-aggressive and knows how to use his units there isn't much I or anyone could do. Until blizzards that is. Then everything I said turns upside down [;)] Be more aggressive.

Lets put it this way. In the opening turns Germans have 80% of all power on the map. Probably even more, like 90%, but I don't want to start more flame wars. There isn't much a Sov player can do with his 10% unless German allows him by playing his cards badly. Many German players do bad, overly cautious opening moves then blame it on the game mechanics or think their Sov opponent was "good".



Zort -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 12:01:57 AM)

Yea I agree.  Presently if the germans want leningrad they got it.  Interesting article in the World at War magazine of a "what if Manstein had attacked" Leningrad instead of stopping for 2 weeks and if he could have taken it.  The article concludes that he probably could have.  But what gets me is that the soviets took 900 days to break the siege, you will never see that in this game.



bednarre -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 1:05:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

Now I must be a really poor German player. Have yet to take Leningrad. Have not gotten to Rostov. Have taken Orel, Kursk and Kharkov. But have been lucky I think to get to basically the historical german lines. Now Oleg has stated numerous times how supermen the Germans are. Hmmm, I have surrounded sov units and they won't surrender after multiple attacks. I have had the soviets make my panzer divs retreat.

Now yes the game doesn't allow for things like Brest to hold out for a month, now how would you get the rail lines thru if they could hold out. I think a lot of the ability for the sovs comes in the way they are defensively handled. So making them stronger or making the germans weaker would probably not allow for the germans to get as far. I don't know about anyone else but each time I have started a GC41 game, I as the germans have felt the need to push as hard as I can, the need to push those panzers past the point they should be. But if you make the russians stronger so they can destroy them sooner then why have a GC41 scenario.

I know I probably shouldn't be responding to Oleg but he has put have some good info. What I have seen in 4 GC41s against human players is the soviets get smarter and defend better. I might get almost as far but in worse shape, but I think I am getting better.

So are the germans supermen in 41, naaa, the russians are just really weak. A very good german player against an average soviet player should have an easy time. Is there room for improvement yep, but if the germans are weakened to the point that they can't push the panzers out then it becomes a WW1 game in the eastern front. Should there be a few more soviet divs that have good CV so they can do those couple of attacks that Oleg wants, maybe.



How many successfull Russian attacks were there in the first 3 months of your campaigns?



Senno -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 1:32:17 AM)

I boobooed with my supermen and accidentally a game out of it.

13th Panzer disagrees with your "immune to counterattack" allegation.[;)]

That, and I'm off to cry that I'm not "good" in your estimation.[:(] I'm close to removing the training wheels from my Panzers, at least.

This after someone jumped on Soviets being "tough." I shoulda stayed in bed. I think I will read PeeDee's AAR on how to lose the war in record time. That'll cheer me up.[:'(]

Turn back, btw. But you know that.[;)]



bednarre -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 1:48:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

quote:

Currently summer and winter of 41 are very one sided affairs.
(quoted from my other post)

As they generally were in real life along with the summer and winter of '42. It wasn't until '43 that the Soviets could push the Germans back during warm weather. Their counter attacks in the Center and other areas definitely hurt the Germans in isolated areas but over the scope of the entire front it didn't slow them down enough where they couldn't make significant gains.



The German high command halted Guderian in July 1941 because of Russian attacks and separation of panzer troops from infantry divisions. This does not sound like a bunch of generals considering the Russians untermenschen! Russian counterattacks caused the Germans worry and losses. Yes the Russian losses were high, but it took valuable time away from the Germans, which they could least afoard. There were some pockets which the Russian counterattacked relieved as well.

Quoting from Guderian's "Panzer Leader", chapter "Crossing the Dnieper", 'While Fourth Army had regarded the threat to the Smolensk area as very serious, we in the Panzer Group were of the opinion that our most dangerous enemy was now to the south of Roslavl and east of Elnya. As a result of units being retained on the Dnieper, west of Smolensk, crises and losses had occurred in the Roslavl area which could have been avoided. The relationship between the commander of the Fourth Army and myself had, in consequence, become strained to an undesirable degree.' Later he rights (September 5 timeframe) "Fourth Army was ordered to evacuate the Elnaya salient. By now the casualties, which I had sought to avoid by a timely withdrawl in August, had been suffered to occur".

Later in the campaign he writes 'On October 6th our headquaters was moved forward to Sevsk. 4th Panzer Division was attacked by Russian tanks to the south of Mzensk and went through some bad hours. This was the first occasion on which the vast superiority of the Russian T34 to our tanks became plainly apparent. The division suffered grievous casualties'.

Finally, 'On October 9th the Russian attempt to break out near Sisemka, which had threatened on the previous day, succeeded. THe right wing of the 293rd Infantry Division was heavily attacked and forced back through Sisemka and Shilinka.'

I guess the key question is why the Germans waited near the Dnieper in the closest position to Moscow for over a month!



bednarre -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 2:02:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

quote:

Incidentally there is a post about just that, in another therad started today:


Yea but didn't want to hijack that thread.

Not having read a lot on battle around Smolensk, but didn't the Germans finally surround and capture several hundred thousand at the end of the battle? I think a lot goes to command and control. Give the soviets more counterattacking capability but handicap them in a big way with bad C&C. That is how I look at the game now. They don't have the CV's to conduct good constant counterattacks because they have bad C&C. Can they now make the german life miserable yep.

Guess I better read the AAR's again. So far each of those hasn't shown me much I didn't know and didn't seem to have a soviet player who did as good a defense as has been done to me. Of course it could be just me.

Edit: Looking at some of the scenarios, when the germans send 3-4 panzer corps north I figure they should take Leningrad. Are you are saying that the germans are supermen if they mass large amounts of panzers and inf with SU's and can take Leningrad and the russian player defends the most vulnerable hex with the weakest stack? To me if the germans want Leningrad and commit large amounts to take it they probably should be able to take it. That is not supermen to me. Now if they can take it with just AGN against good soviet play then yes they are supermen.



I guess what's bothering me is that some of the AARs have a German Panzer Division going tremendous distances without company, and no attempt at a Russian counterattack to break the ring. German Panzer Divisions operated closely with other corps mobile elements, and did not try to take on the entire Russian Army by themselves. I have seen AARs with the Panzer divisions actually broken up in regiments to surround a massive amount of Russian units. Why does this work? Can one German Panzer/Panzergrenadier Regiment be expected to hold back 3 Russian divisions by itself (9:1+), covering 20 miles?



bednarre -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 2:04:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

Yea I agree.  Presently if the germans want leningrad they got it.  Interesting article in the World at War magazine of a "what if Manstein had attacked" Leningrad instead of stopping for 2 weeks and if he could have taken it.  The article concludes that he probably could have.  But what gets me is that the soviets took 900 days to break the siege, you will never see that in this game.



I have heard a similar quote about Stalingrad!



mmarquo -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 2:08:02 AM)

So, Oleg - why can't Zort destroyed your surrounded units and why can you successfully counterattack his panzers in '41? What magic is this??

Marquo



Senno -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 2:16:25 AM)

Are you going to write an AAR, Zort?



Zort -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 2:31:42 AM)

Was thinking of putting one up during the blizzard.  My first game didn't have the 1.3 beta 6 patch until after the first turn of blizzard, so now in jun 42 the soviets have 7+ mil people and 4 hexes in most places of lvl 4 forts.  In my next game we are just about finished with mud.  What would be nice is when I get to 42 to be able to post a decent axis 42 campaign.  Will see if I post, thinking on it.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 2:37:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo
So, Oleg - why can't Zort destroyed your surrounded units and why can you successfully counterattack his panzers in '41? What magic is this??


I am not sure I understand the question Marquo? I have a game with Senno going on, among others, but not with Zort.




Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 2:48:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Senno
13th Panzer disagrees with your "immune to counterattack" allegation.[;)]

That, and I'm off to cry that I'm not "good" in your estimation.[:(] I'm close to removing the training wheels from my Panzers, at least.

This after someone jumped on Soviets being "tough." I shoulda stayed in bed. I think I will read PeeDee's AAR on how to lose the war in record time. That'll cheer me up.[:'(]



Senno, 13th Panzer must be reference to some counterattack in our game I managed to pull off? Deliberate attack by tank unit requires 16 (THATS SIXTEEN) MPs. Most, if not all, my tank units in the opening 10 turns have exactly 16 MPs or even LESS which means if they move as much as ONE single hex they cannot attack (and I need delib attack if I am to stand any chance of winning, hasties won't do except maybe vs lone depleted Rumanians).

So, getting counterattack immunity is real easy, just don't park <5 CV units in the adjacent hex to Kiev MD tank units [:D] Presto, you're immune! [8D] Only until winter, of course.

I am not saying you're not good, you're good and getting better, I am trying to explain how much, in my opinion, of the quality of the opening turns, relies on German, NOT Soviet play. If you know a way of saying this, without criticising anybody or stepping on anyone's toes let me know [;)]



Farfarer61 -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 2:53:25 AM)

It is instructive to play both sides against the AI on Challenging or higher. I figured it would be a cake walk as SU, given that the AI puts up a multi-layered 12=X triple stacked line 100 km deep. Not so easy as a human. I kept Moscow hadily but almost lost Leningrad - against the AI ( for shame). Looking at my tactics, I realized I through away units and formations rather than sorting things out getting organized.



Senno -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 3:12:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Senno
13th Panzer disagrees with your "immune to counterattack" allegation.[;)]

That, and I'm off to cry that I'm not "good" in your estimation.[:(] I'm close to removing the training wheels from my Panzers, at least.

This after someone jumped on Soviets being "tough." I shoulda stayed in bed. I think I will read PeeDee's AAR on how to lose the war in record time. That'll cheer me up.[:'(]



Senno, 13th Panzer must be reference to some counterattack in our game I managed to pull off? Deliberate attack by tank unit requires 16 (THATS SIXTEEN) MPs. Most, if not all, my tank units in the opening 10 turns have exactly 16 MPs or even LESS which means if they move as much as ONE single hex they cannot attack (and I need delib attack if I am to stand any chance of winning, hasties won't do except maybe vs lone depleted Rumanians).

So, getting counterattack immunity is real easy, just don't park <5 CV units in the adjacent hex to Kiev MD tank units [:D] Presto, you're immune! [8D] Only until winter, of course.

I am not saying you're not good, you're good and getting better, I am trying to explain how much, in my opinion, of the quality of the opening turns, relies on German, NOT Soviet play. If you know a way of saying this, without criticising anybody or stepping on anyone's toes let me know [;)]



I have documented most of your counterattacks in the AAR:

5th turn was Romanian Armored, and 5th and 5th Romanian Cavalry, and 900th Lehr as well. Weaky Romanians and a brigade. Well smacked.

Turn 8 was 13th Panzer, and 99th jaeger. 13th Panzer started at 86% TOE, and was on the end of the line of the advance and you smacked it from multiple sides. 50 some thousand men+ though. I wonder if I still have the screenie? I will check.

99th was really alone, kinda forming a link with 11th army/Romanians. But was in high 90's toe, and you smacked it well, also.

That's about it.

I was just teasing though. I thought the smilies would give it away, sorry.

I guess we shouldn't talk about our game, though. OP SEC.

Senno

PS: Marquo seems to be speaking of the Smolensk and Prip Marshes Pockets, in our game, I think. That is if you aren't playing Zort.

PPS: I do understand your general point, Oleg. I was teasing about the one specific case. In general I know you have to mass up with your units from multiple sides to have a reasonable attempt at a counter-attack. That's if you have the units that can move, at all. If you have 1 = 1 or 0 = 0 it's impossible.



Klydon -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 3:22:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bednarre

The German high command halted Guderian in July 1941 because of Russian attacks and separation of panzer troops from infantry divisions. This does not sound like a bunch of generals considering the Russians untermenschen! Russian counterattacks caused the Germans worry and losses. Yes the Russian losses were high, but it took valuable time away from the Germans, which they could least afoard. There were some pockets which the Russian counterattacked relieved as well.

Quoting from Guderian's "Panzer Leader", chapter "Crossing the Dnieper", 'While Fourth Army had regarded the threat to the Smolensk area as very serious, we in the Panzer Group were of the opinion that our most dangerous enemy was now to the south of Roslavl and east of Elnya. As a result of units being retained on the Dnieper, west of Smolensk, crises and losses had occurred in the Roslavl area which could have been avoided. The relationship between the commander of the Fourth Army and myself had, in consequence, become strained to an undesirable degree.' Later he rights (September 5 timeframe) "Fourth Army was ordered to evacuate the Elnaya salient. By now the casualties, which I had sought to avoid by a timely withdrawl in August, had been suffered to occur".

Later in the campaign he writes 'On October 6th our headquaters was moved forward to Sevsk. 4th Panzer Division was attacked by Russian tanks to the south of Mzensk and went through some bad hours. This was the first occasion on which the vast superiority of the Russian T34 to our tanks became plainly apparent. The division suffered grievous casualties'.

Finally, 'On October 9th the Russian attempt to break out near Sisemka, which had threatened on the previous day, succeeded. THe right wing of the 293rd Infantry Division was heavily attacked and forced back through Sisemka and Shilinka.'

I guess the key question is why the Germans waited near the Dnieper in the closest position to Moscow for over a month!


I call BS on Guderian saying they didn't realize how nasty a T-34 was until October. Please give me a break. The first contact (according to Wiki) was with 17th Panzer at the Dnieper (and guess with PG 17th panzer was in? If you said PG2, you are correct!). Now, it could be a case of what PG2 ran into. In that case, I am sure AGS was very familiar with both KV and T-34 tanks since there were a pile of them in the south. A reference by Jodl discusses finding a T-34 near Riga.

Part of the issue for the Germans around Smolensk is they didn't get the pocket closed all the way tight due to counter attacks and many Russian units were able to escape to the east.

The panzer formations at this point were down to around 50-60% combat effectiveness due to both combat and wear. Logistics were not really that good. The Russians continued to try to counter attack and caused the Germans to expend a lot of ammunition. The infantry also needed time to catch up in strength. Russian counter attacks continued the drain on ammo and finally they died out from exhaustion. The Germans then had to build up a logistics base for the attack to move forward on Moscow.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 3:26:53 AM)

Many of the memoir writers are quite good at pointing out reasons why things outside of their control (which they warned about) caused plans to go awry.



Senno -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 3:28:27 AM)

Are you referring to my AAR?



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 3:35:47 AM)

You swore you hadn't seen T-34s before turn 10!



Senno -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 3:43:54 AM)

I'm near-sighted. I thought they were Panje Carts...

I couldn't believe I was being counter-attacked with panje carts, but that's another issue...



Aussiematto -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 6:11:26 AM)

Oleg gets it right when he says that the first few months are all about what the German does and that there's limited opportunity for the Soviet player to change the course of the game but just has to react. I think that might feel quite frustrating (I am only playing Axis at the moment) but, to be honest, is quite historically accurate even if, yes, the way it looks on the map and with the counters is not a perfect simulation.

Is the point of the first months of the war for the Soviets to do a whole lot of organisation / admin, decisions about units to be built, fort lines well to the rear etc which is the way they influence the course of the war? Playing the Axis, I never feel like I am 'taking Leningrad' in 1941... I am thinking, I might be able to hold in the north during winter and then into 1942 with the Finns and that means some armour can be prepared for the 1942 offensive which, if lucky, might mean USSR is too weak to get far in 1943. -- So, from that perspective, both sides , in 1941, are 'preparing' for the real fight... it's just not so much fun for the Russian player (unless you are an administrator!)

Matt



Senno -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 7:17:01 AM)

This is how I generally feel, as well, Majeloz.




ComradeP -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 2:42:49 PM)

I can point it out to Oleg 100 times, maybe 1000 times, but he will still refuse to see that the Germans are not really supermen, that the Soviets can make counterattacks when they concentrate forces (the key problem is lack of force concentration, not the quality of Soviet units per se) and that you can pretty easily make more counterattacks than historical. He's dogmatically attached to his perspective, nothing will change it.

Aside from the counterattacks in the Smolensk area (which slowed down/halted the Germans more than pushing them back), and a counterattack or two in the AGN or AGS areas, the rest of the Soviet forces were historically more or less incapable of what would be considered a counterattack in the game: an attack that forces the Germans back 10 miles/a hex.

You can do much better than that in the game.



hfarrish -> RE: Oleg's German supermen (3/13/2011 3:00:51 PM)

quote:


What makes those Germans supermen is not necesarilly how far they go or what cities they take, but the fact they are practically immune to counterattack. I am not saying isolation - you can isolate mechanized units, and if you're lucky and there is mud next turn - yay. However counterattacking Germans in summer is almost impossible. Incidentally there is a post about just that, in another therad started today:





When you say counterattack do you mean a coordinated multi-attack thrust or just the act of successfully throwing back a German unit or two here and there? Because the latter (during summer, no less) is certainly possible against aggressive German players - I'm no great shakes as a Soviet player but have managed to do it multiple times in my PBEM games. Obviously it does require a significant mass of units but would that really have been ahistorical?



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