Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (Full Version)

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fbs -> Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/16/2011 5:54:15 AM)

I don't like weekly turns; things get too abstract for my taste, and having the game fixed on weekly turns was a big source of doubt about buying it.

Thing is... weekly turns are fine for 50-km hexes, or for Napoleonic-style 20-km hexes. But motor vehicles can cover a lot of distance in one week, meaning a lot of hexes on 16-km hexes. Also there is a lot of rail capacity in a week - enough to evacuate entire armies out of pockets, as long as they have some raiload going out.

I understand the need to keep the game manageable and fast enough for a wide range of players, and I understand that many players prefer to have weekly turns even on 16-km hexes, but I can't understand very well, given the effort spend in the game, why there isn't an option for 1 day, 2 days or 7 days turns as in WITP.




PyleDriver -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/16/2011 6:10:08 AM)

Really? 183 to 365 turns to complete one year, hum...Its already time consuming as is, and very exciting...



Aurelian -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/16/2011 6:52:02 AM)

Nah, weekly turns are fine.





jomni -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/16/2011 7:05:37 AM)

I also prefer weekly.

If you have an option to switch to 1 day turns from 1 week in WITE, then the game mechnanics need to be different.  The game is turn based and current game mechanics are tailor-made for weekly turns.

WITP is always resolved on a daily basis no matter what setting you use. This is because it is WEGO. The settings are just the time between the order phases.



morganbj -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/16/2011 1:45:24 PM)

RT

Do it in RT. Give orders and then watch all units creeeeeeep across the map. Like watching paint dry.

Hey, you want realism ....



marty_01 -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/16/2011 3:32:22 PM)

Weekly is a good time scale for turns given the size and length of this game. I vaguely recall that the turn scale in DNO was two-weeks/per -- which also worked fine -- at least for me. I think the original SPI version of War in the East was weekly turns.

Having said that a "we-go" and or realtime approach to "realistic" operational level simulation is an interesting concept, even if the practicality of the like is perhaps limited for a game of this scale. But "we-go" or real-time game flow -- and I don't mean something silly like Red Alert or whatever -- but a serious operational level simulation for studying specific battles or campaigns might be an interesting twist for game designers of the future who have the desire to break out of the traditional turn-based, hexagon-grid wargames many of us have grown accustomed to (or grown up with). It would be a question of appropriate size for scenarios. Perhaps the focus would have to be narrowed such that players are only baby sitting 10 to 30-units within the particular scenario types being modeled – at whatever unit scale – battalion – regimental\brigade or divisional. But than you’re also looking at setting up servers and the like to allow players to beat-up on each other in real-time. However “we-go” could still be done via old-school PBEM. It would just require one or two additional EMAIL files per turn. We-go was done for a somewhat more serious tactical level wargame design called “Combat Mission”. I’ve always thought the “we-go” approach to the game would be interesting to adopt to a operational level game – ala TOAW, or perhaps even something along the lines of WiTE.

I think games like WiTE are excellent extrapolations of the traditional board wargame. It is good to see games continuing like this as it shows the hobby is continuing to be evolved by intrepid and clever designers. But I often wonder if something can be gained within the more grognardian form of wargaming by incorporation of a few of the more powerful ideas that are evolving out of games types like FPS games or -- at the risk of being boo'ed or subjected to rolling-eyes -- Real-time strategy.



Aurelian -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/16/2011 6:57:55 PM)

And the motor vehicle moving great distances in a week doesn't really wash.

Reliability being a big reason.

Per Glantz, a German armor corps was immobilized due to maintainence after the Polish campaign. (When Titans Clashed, p30).



fbs -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/16/2011 8:35:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

RT
Do it in RT. Give orders and then watch all units creeeeeeep across the map. Like watching paint dry.
Hey, you want realism ....



I don't like RT very much either -- although the way they did in Hearts of Iron, with hourly ticks, that is very interesting.

My ideal large wargame would have monthly/weekly/daily turns for different aspects of the game. Strategic decisions on a monthly basis; production/operational on weekly basis; and tactical on daily turns.

So if WITP had operational-level turns and operational-size hexes (say 50-km per hex), I'd most fine with it. But it is kind midway between them, as in the operational turn the player has full control of what actually is a tactical battlefield. So it has this mixed feeling to it, and the result is sometimes baffling to me; like... a player can conduct a week-long sequence of attacks and encircle plenty of units -- while the other cannot do anything other than with the HQ support & reserve mechanics. Then the second player can conduct a week-long retreat and just vanish from sight. It just looks odd.

Having said that, let me say also... I love chess. Chess is, likewise a wargame, the model of a battle, and is supremely abstract. Being abstract is not a problem. There is a ton of wargames in the market that trade realism for playability, and while WITE may probably be the best of the bunch, I just wished to see a large, detailed game that leaned towards historical realism.

Something, you know, bold, instead of better-but-more-of-the-same -- WITP-AE is uppercase bold.



Aurelian -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/16/2011 8:53:57 PM)

I tried MP HOI once. The constant "Speed up the time.", from the FPS crowd killed it for me.



marty_01 -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/16/2011 9:37:27 PM)

I was very interested in your post FBS...and sorry for going off course a little but as we are talking about I-go\You-go, real-time and We-GO concepts in gaming

After playing WiTE, I have been very tempted on a number of occasions to take the plunge and buy a copy of WITP-AE. I am an avid reader of the history of the War in the Pacific -- both the naval operations and ground combat aspects of this immensely complex war.

However, while I am really enjoying the ground combat aspects of WiTE, and have zero issue with I-go You-go modes within ground combat simulations, I am skeptical of how any turn based I-go You-go wargame can even somewhat "realistically" (there's that word again) model naval operations.

I just finished reading a great book called "Neptune's Inferno: The US Navy at Guadalcanal" by Jim Hornfischer (he also wrote another great book called "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors"). I came away from the reading with the sense that many of the rather crucial surface engagements off of Guadalcanal, Tulagi and Savo were a function of various naval units accidentally bumping into one and another in the middle of the night. How is this sort of rather common mode of surface combat and the simultaneity of the initiation process modeled in a simulation with the scale of WiTP? Forgive the pun but naval operations are so fluid and ships are moving at such high and constant rates of speed (and I mean rates of speed in terms of how these play out when modeling the like in a turn based game where even a day long turn entails a ship potentially traversing hundreds of nautical miles of ocean). Given the rapidity with which ship position changes and unit\commander intent may change based upon the flux in information available to ship\squadron\task force\fleet commander, I'm skeptical that anything approaching "realism" (I said the realism word again) could be accomplished when attempting to model Naval operations using an I-Go You-Go system.

How does WiTP go about things. Is Savo Island even possible...?



EntropyAvatar -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/16/2011 10:28:06 PM)

Probably a better simulation of 41 would have the Germans running on 3 day turns and the Russians running on 1-week turns :)



marty_01 -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 12:27:25 AM)

quote:

Probably a better simulation of 41 would have the Germans running on 3 day turns and the Russians running on 1-week turns :)


[:D] I think your only half-jesting with your comment. It's actually not a bad idea. Seems to me there have been various game designers which have utilized some sort of initiative principal. Like one player sometimes getting back to back turns (or back to back to back turns) in order to simulate surprise, speed of operations -- blitzkrieg -- whatever -- insert word or catchy concept phrase of choice.



marty_01 -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 12:31:56 AM)

quote:

And the motor vehicle moving great distances in a week doesn't really wash.

Reliability being a big reason.

Per Glantz, a German armor corps was immobilized due to maintainence after the Polish campaign. (When Titans Clashed, p30).


Extending up to even modern highly mechanized operations -- ala the 3rd IDs push to Baghdad. Numerous other historical examples also fit the bill.

The logistical aspects of big motorized\mechanized pushes always seemed like a tough aspect to get right within simulation. But I think TOAW and WiTE have actually done a great job at capturing the flavor of these natural and essential breaks in the operational flow of big mechanized pushes. In-game tracking of individual unit supplies and fuel as well as non-combat related vehicle attrition are essential to creating the background environment for this sort of game and for the above type of ingame effect or in-game occurrence. Maybe a little massaging is needed on occasion, but the essential bone structure is here. Very slick.




EntropyAvatar -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 12:42:48 AM)

Yes, only partly jest. Sure, your opponent can do a lot in a weekly turn, but it forces you to plan a bit, try to project where he's going. I think that daily turns would allow you to react too quickly to developing problems.  It would require some different mechanics to model the delay in gathering information and putting plans into action (like uncertain turn order, as marty_01 mentions).




Zorch -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 12:52:47 AM)

Wait for it - here comes 'War in the East - Field Marshall's Edition' with daily turns!!

The German player decides what to load in each and every train car of supplies for delivery to the hard pressed Wehrmacht.
The Soviet player has the option to use penal units to clear minefields. Specially trained canine units can attack German armor.

Players can choose whether to load AP or HE rounds for every single tank.
Frostbite casualties detailed right down to the specific appendage.

Totally realistic, to the last square foot of mud.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 12:53:33 AM)

I agree, weekly turns are fine. The more I play this game (vs a human) the more it seems like a giant CHESS GAME [8D] You have a mini KO game on the first 17 turns... Then other mini games during the mud, snow, blizzard, spring and summer 1942 and so on. And of course all of them are linked. The design (or idea) is simply fabulous. A lot of fun [:)] And at first I thought weekly turns were too abstract (being a WitP player). I was utterly wrong.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 1:02:04 AM)

Daily?  Weakling.  The turns should be in 6-hour increments, with long and detailed rules for night turns.



jomni -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 2:20:33 AM)

The next iteration of Panther Games' Command Ops should be in the Estern Front and it should be larger formations (division size).



Mehring -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 4:54:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

The next iteration of Panther Games' Command Ops should be in the Estern Front and it should be larger formations (division size).

I had the exact same thought.



Joel Billings -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 5:16:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

The next iteration of Panther Games' Command Ops should be in the Estern Front and it should be larger formations (division size).


And then you might have something like the long anticipated (but never to appear) Road to Moscow game. It would be great to see this kind of game published someday, but it would be very different from GGWitE.



Mehring -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 5:36:23 PM)

I have to say, I always thought watching paint dry was under rated.



Baron von Beer -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 6:45:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I tried MP HOI once. The constant "Speed up the time.", from the FPS crowd killed it for me.


Trick is to play it with people you know. I never did "blind" MP because I knew I'd face exactly that. I do play with a few friends, though we always play on the same alliance, or USSR & Allies. We also play Supreme Ruler 2020, which has much the same model of time progression. With people you know you can have comms up and just say you're ready to speed up, when everyone is, kick in the compression, or someone can slow it down or pause as needed, and no one to nag about it.



Ascended -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 8:10:21 PM)

+1 agree the scale both in unit and hex size suggestive of daily turns



petgod -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 9:46:38 PM)

I think the original game had it right.  Wasn't that adjustable between 3 to 5 days per turn?



eastwindrain -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/17/2011 10:05:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

I have to say, I always thought watching paint dry was under rated.


May I be so bold as to recommend a pretty pink shade my boss had his office in this colour as it's supposed to have a calming effect but it always reminded me of a waiting room at a b£$%&l.




fbs -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/18/2011 4:09:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Daily?  Weakling.  The turns should be in 6-hour increments, with long and detailed rules for night turns.



Don't make me drool [:D]



aspqrz02 -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/18/2011 7:12:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Daily?  Weakling.  The turns should be in 6-hour increments, with long and detailed rules for night turns.


Rubbish!

REAL TIME, with no pause key!

That's what sorts the men from the boys!

Phil



Aurelian -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/18/2011 6:57:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Daily?  Weakling.  The turns should be in 6-hour increments, with long and detailed rules for night turns.


Rubbish!

REAL TIME, with no pause key!

That's what sorts the men from the boys!

Phil


And no time increase key either.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/18/2011 7:01:55 PM)

How about the entire east front on ASL level? That would do it properly.



LiquidSky -> RE: Game would be da bomb with daily turns... (3/18/2011 7:45:42 PM)

ASL is a horrible simulation of wwii. But it is a great game to play.



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