Jap Destroyers have incorrect guns!!!!! (Full Version)

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Possum -> Jap Destroyers have incorrect guns!!!!! (9/19/2002 6:25:05 AM)

Hello all
I recently started a game as the Japanese, and I have noticed that the 5" Gun armed Japanese destroyers ALL are equiped with SP guns.
This is wrong.
The Japanese 5"/50 Destroyer Gun was designed to be a Dual Purpose weapon, with an elevation of up to 70 deg in all but the earliest built. And even these had had new mounts fitted that brought them up to 70 Deg by 1942.
As it stands, the Japanese fleet destroyers are compleatly hopeless at Anti Air warfare, being equipped in most cases with only 2 x 13mm MG's.
By what logic did Matrix decide that Japanese Destroyers should be castrated so?
Think about it, Why did the Japenese Navy Compleatly fail to give their Destroyers an Anit Air capability, if their Main Arnament wasn't designed to be used as Anti-Air?




Oleg Mastruko -> (9/19/2002 6:48:25 AM)

For all I know on MOST Jap classes said gun didn't have enough elevation to be really used as serious AA weapon. Later classes and versions of the 5/50 gun did have the elevation needed to shoot aircraft...

Obviously designers were faced with tough choice as whether to make that gun "proper" AA weapon (thus giving Jap DDs more AA power then they did have historically), or to make it SP weapon (thus making Jap DDs VERY vulnerable to air attack, perhaps unrealistically so).

Best solution would be to make two different entires in weapon database: 5/50 (SP) and 5/50 (DP).

Designers decided what they did, and while I cannot unconditionally say they made the wrong decision, it IS kinda ridicolous to have old post-WW1 tin cans (Mutsukis etc whatever they are called) with much better AA rating than Fubukis, Hatsuharus, Shiratsuyus etc., only because the old guys use 4.7" which is rated as proper AA (DP) weapon in game.

Oleg




Wilhammer -> (9/19/2002 7:00:25 AM)

Poor solution.

They should of modeled two types of IJN 5" guns.

Really, they are willing to model pilots to the individual level, but not crew served guns?




Oleg Mastruko -> Haiku for Jap DDs (9/19/2002 7:07:47 AM)

I agree Wilhammer, but Jap players should by now be ready to accept whatever fate throws at them, with Buddhist peace in their souls, and having said that, here's a modest

Haiku for (most of) Jap DDs

Five inch guns worthless
Against incoming aircraft
We die for Nippon

O.




Drongo -> (9/19/2002 1:53:08 PM)

Posted by Possum
[QUOTE]Think about it, Why did the Japenese Navy Compleatly fail to give their Destroyers an Anit Air capability, if their Main Arnament wasn't designed to be used as Anti-Air?[/QUOTE]

I think it was called a mistake.

I've seen a few sources suggest (inluding the combinedfleet and warhips1 websites) that the guns, regardless of their elevation, were near useless in the AA role due to an extremely slow rate of train and the lack of any power ram for the guns.

The Japanese appeared to be the only one's who considered them to be D/P guns. Maybe Matrix may have decided that they were so bad they weren't worth modeling.

As soon as the IJN realised in '42 that they needed G/P escorts, most of their DD's were packed with as many 25mm AA as they could carry without sinking (even to the extent of removing one of the turrets and some of the spare torps).

I'd still like to see them modeled as D/P guns in UV but resources seem pretty tight. If it came down to a choice, rather than see the effort made to give the 5"/50 some (probably woeful) AA capability to make it D/P in UV terms, I'd prefer to see the extra 6-12 (25mm) guns correctly start appearing on upgraded IJN DD's from late '42 onwards.

Oleg,
Bugger your Bhuddist Haiku, I'll take a shipload of 25mm thanks. :p




Von Rom -> (9/19/2002 2:52:33 PM)

Here is another very interesting topic :)

From what I have been able to find out, the Japanese did have many destroyers that served as AA protection for carriers. And in night battles their Long-Lance torpedoes were deadly.

Japanese destroyers were fast and powerfully armed, especially in the torpedo department. Unfortunately, they were less well equipped with good sonar, radar, and adequate anti-aircraft weapons (most Japanese destroyer 5" mounts turned too slowly to track fast moving aircraft, and the dual and triple 25mm mounts which comprised the bulk of their AAA had inferior fire control, a low sustained rate of fire, and insufficient weight of shell). As a consequence, U.S. submarines and aircraft took a heavy toll of these ships. In a night fight, however, they were much to be feared.

Please forgive me for any inaccuracies:

1) Akizuki class - 1942-1945


[img]http://64.124.221.191/akizuk02.jpg[/img]


This was the finest class of destroyers Japan fielded during the war. They mounted a superb 3.9" dual-purpose gun in four twin mounts. They also were among the first Japanese vessels equipped with radar. Yes, they were a little light in the torpedo department (a single mount of four tubes, plus reloads), but the Japanese were desperately in need of good AA ships, and the tradeoff was probably worth it.

Known as the "Type B," these ships were designed primarily as antiaircraft escorts for the carrier force.

Some 50 feet longer and 700 tons heavier than the preceding KAGEROs and YUGUMOs, the AKIZUKIs were able to carry a fourth main-battery turret without suffering any topweight problems as a result. These turrets were large, fully-enclosed and power-operated, and each mounted twin 3.9" high-velocity guns. Though designed as AA weapons, their high rate of fire and range of 20,000 yards made them at least the equal of their American 5" counterparts. From 1943 on each destroyer was also equipped with fifteen to fifty-one 25 mm. machine guns, the number increasing as the war progressed, and a full array of Types 21 and 22 radars.


Armament:

*8 x 3.9"/65 DP
*up to 51 x 25mm AA
*4 x 24" TT
*72 DCs



2) Yugumo class - 1941-1944

[img]http://64.124.221.191/yugumo02.jpg[/img]

Their main armament of six 5"/50 cal. guns was the same as the KAGEROs, but these were mounted in the new Type D turret capable of 75-degree elevations as opposed to KAGERO's 55-degrees, a considerable advantage in the antiaircraft role which became more vital as the war progressed. In fact, this major upgrade, often overlooked, obviated the need to sacrifice a main-gun turret for extra light AA, and no YUGUMOs actually suffered the removal of their "X" turret to make room for extra 25 mm. machine guns, as has been widely reported. (SHIMAKAZE also carried the Type D turrets — KAGERO-class AKIGUMO did not.) Instead, surviving YUGUMOs added their two triple 25 mm. mounts on bandstands abaft their fore-funnels. One of the spare sets of Long-Lance torpedoes was also eventually landed in favor of the greater AA firepower, with the total number of 25 mm. growing to between fifteen and twenty-eight per destroyer.

armament:

*6 x 5"/50 DP,
*up to 28 x 25mm AA,
*up to 4 x 13mm AA,
*8 x 24" TT,
*36 DCs


3) Shimakaze class - 1943

[img]http://64.124.221.191/shimak02.jpg[/img]

One word sums up this magnificent vessel: power. She had a top speed of almost 40 knots (that's really moving, people), 6 x 5" guns, and a main torpedo battery of 15 (count 'em) 24" tubes. She was one of the most powerful destroyers of the war -- the superb U.S. Allen Sumner had comparable gun power and better fire control, and the French Mogadors had the same speed and superior 8 x 5.5" gunpower (not to mention almost 1,000 tons of full load displacement -- nearly a light cruiser), but neither of these classes had the kind of torpedo battery capable of scuppering an entire squadron of opponents at a crack. Of course, because of her outsized powerplant she was far too expensive to be built in any sort of quantity (Japan was losing the war big-time by the time she was launched), and her sixteen sister ships were never laid down.

Armament:

*6 x 5"/50 DP,
*up to 28 x 25mm AA,
*up to 4 x 13mm AA,
*15 x 24" TT,
*18 DCs



More information on Japanese destroyers:

http://www.warships1.com/Japanese_destroyers.htm

http://www.friesian.com/destroy.htm




Drongo -> (9/19/2002 5:07:42 PM)

I reckon those box top paintings on the "waterline" series have seen more use than the plastic models that came with them.

[QUOTE]the dual and triple 25mm mounts which comprised the bulk of their AAA had inferior fire control, a low sustained rate of fire, and insufficient weight of shell. [/QUOTE]

Even so, safety in numbers:D :D :D (especially the Akizuki's - 51!!!).




Oleg Mastruko -> Haiku for lost shipment (9/19/2002 6:59:08 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drongo
[B]Oleg,
Bugger your Bhuddist Haiku, I'll take a shipload of 25mm thanks. :p [/B][/QUOTE]

Alas Drongo, mate
Shipload of fine AA guns
Was sunk by a sub

:cool:

O.




Drongo -> (9/19/2002 7:16:58 PM)

Posted by Oleg
[QUOTE]Alas Drongo, mate
Shipload of fine AA guns
Was sunk by a sub
[/QUOTE]

:D :D :D




Erik Rutins -> Response... (9/19/2002 9:15:19 PM)

I'll call this post to Rich's attention, but I would assume that this was indeed a design decision. We do continue to review and revisit all of our OOB data thanks to the tireless efforts of Rich, Ron and Gaylon. I think everyone will agree that the 1.40 OOBs are more accurate than the 1.00 were and I'm sure that if there's an issue here those excellent fellows will deal with it properly. :)

Regards,

- Erik




Apollo11 -> Oleg is great Haiku master... (9/19/2002 9:29:36 PM)

Hi all,

Oleg is great Haiku master...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. Since Oleg and I play long campaign (#19) I expect
more of his work in this department... :-)




Rich Dionne -> (9/19/2002 11:59:50 PM)

I believe Gary made a conscious decision to make the 5"/50 type 3 a single purpose gun. The very slow training speeds and lack of power ramming made these mountings almost useless in an anti-aircraft role.

You should, however, see 25 mm AA weapons on Japanese destroyers in the next patch.

Regards,

Rich




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