Nelson Rolling in Grave! (Full Version)

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Capt. Harlock -> Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/29/2011 8:19:41 PM)

And Horatio Hornblower and Jack Aubrey would be as well, if they weren't immortal by reason of being fictional characters. Not only has the RN decommissioned the Ark Royal, they're putting her up for sale on the Ministry of Defence's equivalent of eBay:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12883511



warspite1 -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/29/2011 8:42:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

And Horatio Hornblower and Jack Aubrey would be as well, if they weren't immortal by reason of being fictional characters. Not only has the RN decommissioned the Ark Royal, they're putting her up for sale on the Ministry of Defence's equivalent of eBay:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12883511

Warspite1

[:(][:@][8|][:@][&:][:o][:(][:@][:(]

Which I think just about sums it up.....



Hertston -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/29/2011 8:53:05 PM)

Other than putting us in the unforgivable position of having no naval air power for the next decade or so, I don't really see the problem with the disposal itself.  Most other decommissioned RN ships not sunk by either enemy action or as target practice went the same way, albeit via more conventional auctions.   Most were just scrapped, others found more interesting uses (like being sunk as an artificial 'coral reef', for example). Same with every other Navy... what else would you do with them?



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/29/2011 9:19:17 PM)

Sad but understandable. The RN has not exactly had their Trafalgar yet against the Iraq or Libya. This is something I wish our department of defense would learn. The $65 billion spent on the F-22 Raptor program has created a lot of new aces in our dogfights with the Taliban.



warspite1 -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/29/2011 9:21:48 PM)

I'm not fussed about the method of disposal - I can think of plenty of ships that were more worthy of keeping as a museum piece than the Ark Royal.

I am mightily fussed however that our armed forces are being stripped to the bone at the same time that our servicemen are expected to risk life and limb on an ever more frequent basis.....



martok -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/29/2011 10:35:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

Other than putting us in the unforgivable position of having no naval air power for the next decade or so


I think this aspect of the situation is what is bothering people more, less than the method of poor Ark Royal's disposal.

For over four centuries, Britain has been one of the world's great sea powers, and it's a shame -- if not an outright disgrace -- to see your guys' navy being reduced to a couple of tin cans. I know your government if facing severe budget problems, but this still shouldn't be happening IMHO.





planner 3 -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/29/2011 10:50:54 PM)

After 20 years active duty with the USNavy, I can honestly say that government (spenders) learn very little from History, after every conflict, small or large, they let their service units and men fall by the wayside. One of these days they'll wake up and it won't be roses that they smell, it'll be the refuse that hits the roatating airfoil.



andym -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/30/2011 4:56:36 PM)

Speaking as an ex matelot,i am sad to see this.Bit by bit our Forces are bing stripped down to the bare bones.We still havent learned from 2 past episodes that Naval Air Power is a MUST!Not only do we no longer have dedicated Military hospitals,we now have no air cover.Crazy!Such shortsightedness of the idiots in charge of the Pursestrings!



freeboy -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/30/2011 10:06:12 PM)

What would happen if the US went back to an era  reminiscient of the 30s isolationist and left Nato and  Europe etc?
While today we all would say, that could never happen, it is not that hard to imagine



warspite1 -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/30/2011 11:11:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

What would happen if the US went back to an era  reminiscient of the 30s isolationist and left Nato and Europe etc?

Warspite1

It would depend on who the enemy is at the time and the nature of the threat.....but I guess its only then that Europe would wake up and realise how much they rely on the US.



Shawkhan -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/31/2011 6:14:49 PM)

What distresses me is that our militaries want to fight the next war in the same way that they fought the last one, then are rudely surprised when it doesn't work. IMHO unmanned a/c capable of 2-3 times the performance of manned a/c and shipkiller missiles, satellite-guided at ranges approaching 1000 miles, soon to be increased, will dominate in the next major war. A/C carriers will mostly be targets, multi-billion dollar targets at that.



GaryChildress -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (3/31/2011 6:58:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawkhan

What distresses me is that our militaries want to fight the next war in the same way that they fought the last one, then are rudely surprised when it doesn't work. IMHO unmanned a/c capable of 2-3 times the performance of manned a/c and shipkiller missiles, satellite-guided at ranges approaching 1000 miles, soon to be increased, will dominate in the next major war. A/C carriers will mostly be targets, multi-billion dollar targets at that.


Good point! A/C carriers are still good for low level wars against third world countries, but against more sophisticated opponents?



rhondabrwn -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (4/1/2011 6:21:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

What would happen if the US went back to an era  reminiscient of the 30s isolationist and left Nato and  Europe etc?
While today we all would say, that could never happen, it is not that hard to imagine


The common folk might adopt that philosophy, but powerful corporate interests would continue to insure that American military force would be projected worldwide.



ilovestrategy -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (4/1/2011 8:59:40 AM)

This reminds me of the scrapping of the "BIG E", the WW2 Enterprise. 20 battle stars and went to scrap. [:(]



warspite1 -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (4/1/2011 9:03:00 AM)

Which was akin to our decision to scrap HMS Warspite. Sad Sad Sad.



redcoat -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (4/1/2011 11:20:22 PM)


Britain has indeed been one of the world’s leading seapowers for the last 400 years. The Royal Navy still has considerably more than a ‘couple of tin cans’ today. But for most of the last 400 years Britain has faced the threat of foreign invasion and defended a worldwide Empire. Now Britain no longer faces any immediate threat of invasion and most of our former overseas territories are independent allied or friendly states with their own navies. We no longer need hundreds of ships – or ships in every part of the world.

That being said I think the present Government’s defence cuts have gone too far too soon. Older ships are being retired before their £1 billion replacements are available. HMG’s 2010 strategic defence review claims that we no longer need a carrier because the UK has access to airbases around the world. This may be the case in most hotspots around the world (at the moment), but not every one of them (without considerable air-to-air refuelling). The real reason for the early retirement of Ark Royal is financial.

It would have been useful to have Ark Royal off the coast of Libya now, but then again the RAF’s land-based Tornadoes are capable of delivering ordnance – such as the UK’s mainstay cruise missile Storm Shadow - that the RN’s Harriers could not.



NefariousKoel -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (4/3/2011 3:51:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

Sad but understandable. The RN has not exactly had their Trafalgar yet against the Iraq or Libya. This is something I wish our department of defense would learn. The $65 billion spent on the F-22 Raptor program has created a lot of new aces in our dogfights with the Taliban.


You don't prepare for the war today, you prepare for the war tomorrow.

[8|]



Anthropoid -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (4/3/2011 4:24:10 AM)

Agree it is sad to see the old gray ladies days of military service end. Still, if she has a second life as a school or museum that wouldn't be so undignified. Hopefully not scrap though :(

The thing I can't help but wonder though is: was she so old and out-dated that she was really past her prime? I don't know enough about modern naval technologies to even guess, but that is what I would wonder. What with improvements in remote sensing, missile guidance, electronics, computers, satellite-augmented functions, guidance systems, explosives, propellants, etc., etc., I wonder if she was just so out of date that in any real conflict she would've been more of a liability than an asset?

I was looking at some of these weird ship designs they are dreaming up these days on Wiki or something, littoral ships and ships made entirely out of polymers and stuff . . . seems that there are perhaps some revolutionary changes in the equipment that make big old metal aircraft launching platforms somewhat behind the times?



warspite1 -> RE: Nelson Rolling in Grave! (4/3/2011 8:32:39 AM)

The answer is no - this decision is all about money, or rather the lack of it.



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