For those taking Leningrad (Full Version)

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vsek -> For those taking Leningrad (4/4/2011 5:27:50 AM)

What time frame are you doing it in? Any tips?

I will play the full campagn game but give up on it around 12-1-41 if I havent taken Leningrad only cus it turns into such a slug/attrition fest until June the next year. I want to play the full campaign game with a captured Leningrad but just cant seem to get it. I get it surrounded, and within a hex all the way around an within a hex of the resupply port but...just always a bridge too far.[&:]



Aussiematto -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/4/2011 6:39:59 AM)

Whether or not Leningrad is taken depends on a) how much Axis commits to taking it and b) do Soviets want to stop you :). The only way to tell is to have a go but then stay flexible enough to redeploy. In one game, I took it in around turn 10, but that didn't stop me getting hammered because I played poorly elsewhere and now, mid Feb, my Russian opponent is facing a line of routed Rumanians and depleted infantry regiments while most of my army refits on the western mapedge. Good example of how my clever 'take Leningrad' strategy failed to account for what happens is the Soviet player gives it away. In two others, I cleared it with a couple of turns to go before the mud. I am just in another one, turn 4, and have attempted a risky thrust to get there earlier with 4th PzA because the defences seem (operative word) weak...this might also be a trap.

Isolating it via the three Ladoga ports, including the difficult to reach one near the Finnish no-attack line, is my preferred operational plan: it saves manpower, pockets Russian defenders into captivity, and means you have forces free to push south-east threatening Moscow from the north.

While I have now abandoned my Leningrad at all costs strategy - I think it reduces the flexibility of force deployment needed to respond to what the opponent does - I still think once you commit to it, you have to take it. Otherwise the cost is too high.

What's your preferred strategy?



Klydon -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/4/2011 2:01:03 PM)

If you are playing the campaign game, AGN needs extra help to take it, especially since it has become more and more of an obvious target for the Axis in 1941. The other thing is you must have speed of capturing territory uppermost in your mind. Pretty pockets trapping Russian troops in the Baltic states may be nice, but they delay the German advance.

There are some excellent tips in the War Room for openings up north and a fair amount of changes have taken place in German strategy (like capturing Riga and sending troops in by sea on the first turn).

For a rough time line IMO:

Turn 1: Capture Riga and be across the Daugava in force with 4th panzer and some help from 3rd panzer.

Turn 2: Be on Pskov's door step and also have it outflanked from the south over the Velikaya if you can.

Turn 3: Get Pskov isolated (taken would be great, but most Russians will make a stand here) and as much infantry into the area as possible. You want to get over to just south of Lake Ilmen to prevent more troops from coming in that way if you can.

Turn 4: Pskov falls. Look at breaching the Luga river with your panzers. You may alternatively rest some panzer corps and gas them this turn.

Turn 5-6: Big shove into the Leningrad area proper. You would love to cut the rail lines into the city from the east proper. If the Russians have not sent a pile of troops in by this time, Leningrad is going to be doomed. If they sent the kitchen sink, it may be tougher to make headway, but your infantry should be close.

After this, it is a grind to get the job done. Any more, unless the Germans really catch the Russians by surprise, it is hard to plan a right hook for the ports because the move is so well known, but you may catch him by surprise both by the strength of your thrust and if you gassed up and he perhaps missed it and didn't plan on you having so much movement.

The other thing is to get the 18th army set up to crack the place. That includes sending them engineers, etc and also getting someone like Model in command of the corps you plan on making your lead city/fortification cracker. 




carnifex -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/4/2011 4:43:16 PM)

What you really need to do to take Leningrad depends less on tactical prowess than preparation. First you need one dedicated army, for example the 18th. Reorganize so that you have 4 corps of 3 infantry. This allows you to have four full stacks attacking with no leftover divs. Attach all the heavy guns to those corps. For example each corps in the 18th gets one Hvy Nebel, one Nebel, one Theo/Hvy How, one 9x150 gun, one 12x105 gun, one 12x150 how, one 12x210 how, one stug, one jagdpanzer, two pioneers, and one flamm panzer (You might want to attach all or some of these directly to the divisions). The 4th Panzer also gets support like above, and at least two corps from the 16th get outfitted like that as well.


Send all initial reinforcements to AGN. You want the 18th with 4 corps of 3 divs, the 16th with 4 corps of 3 divs, and the 4th panzer, with 2 corps of 3 armor/mech, and one 1 corp of 3 or 4 inf. The 18th heads straight to Leningrad and begins assaults with the intent of clearing out the south shore. Keep making attacks even if not favorable just to reduce the forts. Rotate your fatigued units out but keep pecking away. You will have better success clearing out the eastern hexes first and crossing the river there than hammering directly against the city. Try to take hexes and insert forces so that the next turn you're starting off with a 3 hex 9 div attack against your target hex.

The 16th supports the 18th right flank and sends 2 corps east to cut as much rail as possible. The 4th Panzers only objective is to close the ports - just keep punching north until you hit the Finns. You can go through Novgorod or swing by that lake to the right, but either way keep heading north. If the 16th does it job then the 4th Panzer will have a much easier time clearing the ports since the port defenders depend upon rail supply from the east (which the 16th needs to cut or push back).

Keep the air bases fully staffed. You begin with A/C in reserve and have some early reinforcements. Send them to AGN as soon as you can. Keep the bases very close to the front and also make sure you assign some extra JU-52s so that your panzers and mech receive fuel drops every turn.

Hopefully you'll close the ports during the mud turns. This is why you have an Inf corps with the 4th Panzer - to get into that swamp and launch prepared assaults against the last port. Then you'll have several turns of assaulting the isolated Leningrad garrison before blizzard hits.

Send all the Fins you can spare east. You will only need a screening force north of Leningrad. By the time the 2nd Leningrad hex falls the other Soviets nearby are easily mopped up by the Germans (Leningrad will be full of Germans at the time of the last assault) - those Fins will be much more useful in the east so as soon as the 2nd hex falls they can start to punch holes where it matters.

If you have spare admin points take a look at AGNs leadership and take care of any weak spots right before the crucial assaults.

Don't forget to use the HQ build up function to give you that critical edge.

Rail building is easy for AGN but keep some attention there and make sure the FBD unit builds one rail line right up to Leningrad and then another spur needs to go northeast to supply the port assaults and the eastern Fins (who will not be able to build rail in the north on time).




Q-Ball -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/4/2011 5:17:04 PM)

It's not very good tank country up there, but I would still seriously consider sending 1 Panzer Corps turn 1 from PzGp3 up north. I did this in my last PBEM game, and the extra units were decisive. I also sent all extra infantry, which others have mentioned.

One thing that helps is that 18th Army starts with some of the best Infantry Divisions in the Wehrmacht; try not to get them worn-down too badly.

If you don't send the Panzer Corps, I would almost certainly send 2nd Army toward the V-L area, allowing you to shift 16th Army further north and help around Leningrad. As the front expands, and 9th Army is pushing toward Moscow, a gap tends to form anyway between 9th Army and AGN. Fill it with 2nd Army.

I plan to start a Soviet PBEM as soon as the next patch comes out, and you can bet I will be prioritizing Leningrad Area for reinforcements, so as more Soviet players start to do that, it may become real tough to take the place.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/4/2011 7:38:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I plan to start a Soviet PBEM as soon as the next patch comes out, and you can bet I will be prioritizing Leningrad Area for reinforcements, so as more Soviet players start to do that, it may become real tough to take the place.


Yes, I don't understand why many Soviet players don't send lots of troops up north to REALLY protect Leningrad [:)]

I remember [German] players said "if the Germans want to take Leningrad, they will do it, no one can stop them". The only little problem with this assumption is that they forget the other side... There's an action = there's going to be a reaction. The Germans mass their forces to grab leningrad? The Soviets will mass their forces to defend it. Simple as that.

If those same German players say this won't make any difference, the Germans will advance like a knife through butter, then something has to be wrong... That would mean the Soviets cannot do anything to delay the Germans, so they better give Moscow and Leningrad on turn 1 and start retreating far behind these two cities, waiting for the blizzard...



Klydon -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/4/2011 9:54:52 PM)

I think having Leningrad as a target as the Axis is only part of the equation. Something else that MUST be done as the Axis is to put pressure elsewhere to make the Russians make choices.

The issue with "protecting" Leningrad is the Leningrad area does not have sufficient troops that either start there or show up there to stop the Germans. The Russians need to start railing in troops from the get go in order to give the Leningrad defenses a chance and that is where the weakness is.

I have been playing around with a German opening (and 41 campaign) that deals with Leningrad as one of its targets. To this end, AGN gets help from 1 panzer corps from PG3 and will also get some initial support from AGC infantry troops as well until Second Army comes on line. It is my intention to have all of AGN operate north of Lake of Ilmen. Anything short of that, I don't think they have enough.

Now, the other side of the coin of this is to put pressure someplace else to make the Russians choose: rail troops to Leningrad's defense or move industry away from the onslaught of Germans elsewhere. To me, the only real place that this can take place is in the South. To that end, AGS gets help from PG2 in the form of 2 panzer corps and a infantry corps. That puts 3 panzer corps working with AGN, 2 in center, and 5 in the south. Yes, that means the center doesn't get that much, but in game terms, Moscow is simply not that big of a deal because taking it is hard under normal conditions and it takes awhile to get to anyway, giving the Russians time to rail in troops to Leningrad and evacuating industry elsewhere at a later time. Having a powerful thrust going in the Southern area will put a lot of pressure on the Russians because there is a lot of industry they can threaten. The other thing with a powerful shot at Leningrad is hopefully you can disrupt their defenses before they get truly dug in really well. The forthcoming changes with 1.04 will make this tougher, not easier.

While I know that it is different against the AI, the point of this little exercise is to give me some more familiarity with the Axis and also see how viable from an organizational standpoint of view this may or may not be. One thing I think many Axis players lack is a strategic game plan on how they are going to conduct their game plan and then work towards that end.




Altaris -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/4/2011 9:55:18 PM)

There is a light wood hex 2 hexes east of Leningrad, behind that major river line. That is the Achilles heel of Leningrad, IMO. If you take this hex, you can easily cut off the only port on the western side of Lake Lagoda, and Leningrad is out of supply.

I also firmly believe that this hex is undefendable by a concentrated German attack.

Here's the rundown of the plan:
1) Designate one Army as your assault group (I like using the 18th Army). Divide it into 4 Corps of 3 divisions each. Load it up with your best leaders, loads of pioneers and heavy guns. Try to keep it in good shape (that won't be hard, since it has such good leaders and firepower).
2) Designate two-three more Armies to help blow into Leningrad ASAP and cover your flanks.
3) Use your armor to get as close to Leningrad as fast as possible. Usually you can be within 12-15 hexes by turn 6 or so.
4) Now the heavy fighting comes in, just bull-doze straight towards that light wooded hex as quick as you can. There's some tough fighting to do it, but the Russians really can't stop your concentrated attack at this stage. You'll be at the river by turn 13-14, more likely around 10-11.
5) Once at the river, get 18th Army ready to alternate your attacks. Have 2 Corps deliberate attack the light wood hex, they will likely fail but hopefully reduce forts some. THen move them back and bring in the other 2 Corps. Keep doing this each turn til it falls. Once the forts come down to 1 or 2, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion to fall. Should you start having troubles for some reason, designate another army to keep cycling the attacks.

I took it on the first turn of attacks this way, despite facing about 28 CV of rifle divisions behind lvl 3 forts and a major river. But my opponent had taken a bad beating, and I imagine these guys were a little wrecked.

I played a HtH game vs myself to test out this strategy, and even starting to build and plan for this hex to be attacked on turn 1, the Germans still were able to take it down around Turn 15. The only way I could think to better defend it as the Soviets was to bring plenty of rifle divisions back behind Leningrad and cycle them each turn, to keep fatigue from building up, and to have motorized/tank divisions behind teh lines on reserve. But I'm not sure it would ultimately make that big a difference, and all those extra units will be trapped if the Germans do breach it.

Personally, I think this is the best approach vector for the Germans to Leningrad. It requires far less troops than a flanking attack on the eastern Lagoda ports, and should it fail, you've not left your armies in an overly extended position.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/4/2011 10:12:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
Now, the other side of the coin of this is to put pressure someplace else to make the Russians choose: rail troops to Leningrad's defense or move industry away from the onslaught of Germans elsewhere. To me, the only real place that this can take place is in the South.


But if you put pressure elsewhere that makes two places heavily reinforced: the south and Leningrad. That means the center will inevitably be VERY weak... And that of course means the Soviets can divert many forces from this place to help, mostly in Leningrad. Both the Soviets and Germans face the same dilemmas. They can't be strong everywhere. It's totally impossible. A choice must be made.

Now if a Soviet player does not fight fire with fire (a strong German advance should meet a strong, stubborn Soviet defence)... expect Leningrad, Moscow and Siberia to fall. No rocket science [:)]

In fact on my current game I HAD exactly this problem... A German advance that threatened to swallow a lot of indutry in the south. In at least 2 turns I could NOT use the trains to move reserves from A to B. And I still managed to send many hordes to Leningrad.



Q-Ball -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/4/2011 11:33:29 PM)

I think Klydon is right about the Rail conundrum; taking Leningrad may depend heavily on strong advances on all the industry in the Ukriane, and keep the Soviets focused on the need to rail all that out. The Center does not offer these opportunities; there is nothing between Mogilev and Moscow that requires saving.

In fact, with the Rail/Industry changes, Moscow is even a less attractive target. Moscow gets alot of new units; so any advances in AGC don't require rail capacity to counter. The units for the most part can just walk there.

To counter AGN or AGS, though, you need rail capacity. They get a few reinforcements, but not enough to stall a firm German drive.

Yet, at game start, AGC gets the majority of armor. This is despite the fact that it has the FEWEST targets of opportunity, and the least opportunity to press Soviet industry or not run into lots of Soviet troops.

Therefore, I think AGC needs to be denuded of strength from the get-go, to reinforce both flanks. Pz Gp 2 can give up troops turn-1 to AGS, and turn south from Gomel after clearing the Dnepr line. 3rd Pz Gp should give up a Panzer Corps to AGN, leaving it with a single Panzer Corps, and 2 Infantry Corps. 9th Army advances in the center, with getting east of Smolensk the main goal, anything after that just space.

Send everything to the flanks, forget the Center.

Discuss.



Manstein63 -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/4/2011 11:43:53 PM)

I have to be very careful what I say here as the game that I am playing is coming to a critical point (& I don't want to give my opponent any more information than he can glean on his own) I am playing the Barbarossa scenario as the soviet player & have been subjected to the right hook ( the best part of 2 Panzer Armees? & an Infanty Armee broke through between velikie-luki & lake Ilmen.) It was a great big WTF moment & I thought holy crap now you are really screwed but I have transferred substantial reserves to the area in order to stabalise the situation & even if I do lose Lenningrad I would think that if our game continued through the blizzard into 1942 that I would be in a decent position to take it back. As TulliusDetritus said 'Both the Soviets and Germans face the same dilemmas. They can't be strong everywhere. It's totally impossible. A choice must be made'. The real trick is to try to convince your opponent to attack you where you are strongest. If the German player makes a serious effort to take Lenningrad the chances are he will succeed, but a price will have to be paid in another part of the front, & the further the German player advances into Russia the more stretched & susceptible to counter attack he becomes.
Manstein63



Klydon -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/5/2011 12:01:54 AM)

Part of the reason to put pressure on the southern industry is because it is spread around and all of it can't easily be defended. A mass of panzers in the south that can go 3 different directions really makes it hard for the Russians to plot an effective defense of everything because the Germans can go hit so many industrial targets that are important to the Russians and many of these are west of Moscow and even west of the Dnepr. Not only are the Russians going to have to be making decisions on what to rail, but if you can apply enough pressure, you will force the Russians to potentially adapt defensive positions they don't want to simply because they need to try to slow you down and give themselves time to evacuate industry. In my particular plan with 5 panzer corps operating in the better tank terrain, that should hopefully equate to some serious punishment being handed out, especially considering the refinement of the shock and awe that goes on with the opening German moves in the south. (I got a few new wrinkles on that I am working on as well).

In the center against the Moscow area, it is a lot different story. While you can include Kaluga and Kalinin in the immediate Moscow area, there is little west of Moscow that can be threaten quickly. In addition, you have issues with a belt of swamps and the Valdi hills along the northern flank of a Moscow thrust that most any Russian is going to feel comfortable tossing some infantry in to slow down any would be attacker. Since the game does not really attach any special significance to Moscow (unlike Leningrad, which brings the Finns out to play), then it is simply not going to be the priority to many Axis players as it was to the German General Staff who felt its capture would be a major blow to the Russians on several levels.




2ndACR -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/5/2011 12:13:22 AM)

The only issue with using a lot of armor in the south is the rail issue. The German can blow thru so much territory so fast that you out run supply almost to the extreme. And unlike the center, there are no straight rail lines to speed up the repairs, they all zig zag around. By turn 4-5 your tanks are running on fumes and can still be running on fumes come turn 15 if your not careful.

Add to that, the extended flanks you will have to guard. I have run into that one myself. Unless you motorize a infantry Army to keep up, you will far out pace your infantry.

But I also feel the Center can almost go static about turn 4-5. I did that with Tillius, and even with my forgetting about a rail repair unit for countless turns above Minsk (never let a FBD end with a HQ) and waiting until turn 13 or so I still pushed to the Orel, Bryansk area. You have to go north and south IMO.



Klydon -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/5/2011 2:38:15 AM)

You are right on the logistics issues in the south, but there are some things to consider with that.

First, I think you send one of the repair units from north of the marshes to the south to help out.

Secondly, most of the AAR's do not feature the Germans making the Crimea or the other Black Sea ports a priority. There is now a reason to make it more of a priorty and that is ports for supply purposes. Sea of Azov ports will be more of a pita since you have to have a Sea of Azov port connected to your rail lines in order for it to work.



AKCLIMBER -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/5/2011 3:48:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vsek

What time frame are you doing it in? Any tips?

I will play the full campagn game but give up on it around 12-1-41 if I havent taken Leningrad only cus it turns into such a slug/attrition fest until June the next year. I want to play the full campaign game with a captured Leningrad but just cant seem to get it. I get it surrounded, and within a hex all the way around an within a hex of the resupply port but...just always a bridge too far.[&:]


Sounds like you're playing against the AI, yes? I'm currently om my 5th full campaign as Germans against the AI (normal). I've played thru winter on all of them but have only kept going past February on my current try. I've managed to take Leningrad on the last two tries. My 2nd and 3rd games, I tried a Leningrad first strategy, in which I loaded up AGN with extra panzers and infantry from AGC, pretty much ignored Moscow and tried for steady progress down south. In those games, the AI's defense of Leningrad was solid. Each time, taking Leningrad directly was out of the question and I was forced to go for the right hook to the ports and Finns. Brutal. On my 2nd try, I isolated Leningrad during the snow and eventually took it and the pocket during the blizzard. Crazy close call. Now, my current game was interesting. I started out with a "South First" strategy since I was tired of the slog for Lgrad and needed to try new things. Well, things down south went well as did things in the center. And crazy as it seemed, just using the AGN forces I started with, I was making terrific progress towards Lgrad. Late summer/early fall, I decided to test a theory I had that the AI was very interested in protecting Moscow. I abandoned my south first strategy and diverted my panzers corps from the south up thru Kharkov, Kursk, Orel and thru Tula, to threaten Moscow from the south while pushing doggedly towards the capitol from the west. In early fall, Lgrad remained vulnerable to an "easy" right hook so I diverted my northern most panzers threatening Moscow and with the use of HQ build-up, managed a remarkably easy, completely unexpected and unplanned right hook isolation/hook-up with the Finns. My game since then has flip-flopped to a very fun "North First" strategy wherein I managed to take Moscow in the summer of 1942 and it may turn on that Gorky is my personal version of Stalingrad in 1943 [X(]

Anyway, that's my long-winded way of saying that in my limited experience,along with moving as fast as possible towards Lgrad (I agree with Kyldon's timetable), a credible, sustained threat towards Moscow seems to really occupy the AI and free up some room around Lgrad.

Good luck!



vsek -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/5/2011 6:07:52 AM)

lots of good tips thanks. I am only playing AI. I seemed to get the closest and best success by trying the right or left hook approach. Trying to trick the AI as much as possible. I learned if you mass units as a Leningrad first strartegy the AI catches on so you definately got to have good diversions with successes. In the past my army group north was still going after a couple encirlclements but not too many. I guess I gotta go for broke up north.



Aussiematto -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/5/2011 6:15:56 AM)

If you are playing the AI, then be warned -- the AI can do things defensively no human player seems able to do normally involving a line of forts in the swamps on the east bank of the Volkhov. I am assuming this is programmed in. As a result, you have a much tougher time of it vs the AI in most cases. On the other hand, everything else is easier LOL.

Novgorod is a key city... get that one and get forces over the Volkhov in the south.

Panzers are a must... don't attack with them... bust hexes open with infantry (all good advice above re numbers, support units, leaders etc) then move mobile units through.

Against the AI, basically, it's just a question of mass and time: if you do the tactics right you will get it.



AKCLIMBER -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/5/2011 6:32:20 AM)

And don't forget to use HQ build-up for that extra push you might need.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vsek

lots of good tips thanks. I am only playing AI. I seemed to get the closest and best success by trying the right or left hook approach. Trying to trick the AI as much as possible. I learned if you mass units as a Leningrad first strartegy the AI catches on so you definately got to have good diversions with successes. In the past my army group north was still going after a couple encirlclements but not too many. I guess I gotta go for broke up north.




Q-Ball -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/5/2011 4:34:01 PM)

The Rail problem in the South is real. In fact, someone should start a thread on Axis rail building in general, because not sure what best practice is in this area.




vonik -> RE: For those taking Leningrad (4/8/2011 3:54:14 PM)

I consider that taking Leningrad is key to do well in the East regardless what you do Center and South .
The value of having the Finns on the front compared to not having them is equivalent of having 1,5 extra Army or not having it .
You ll also go through the blizzard like a breeze if you have Finns bashing those weak Soviets lost in the middle of nowhere .
That is indeed what can make or break a war .

I have found that the fundamental point is what you do at Novgorod .
The Russian is facing an insolvable dilemma there .
The obvious targets are the rail knots at Chudovo and Kukkovo . The natural defence line runs N-S in the swamps on both shores of Volkhov . The Russian will want to dig in there and slow you enough to take out the momentum of the 4 PzA .
But as you kept your 4 PzA on the right flank of the 16th Army (that I generally reinforce) , you strike NE towards Nebolochi .
There is no force in the world that can keep you from getting there once the Russian dug in at Volkhov river .

From Neboloshi depending on how much time you have , you can spare a fast Pz thrust towards Bugodosh and pocket the defence at Volkhov . If time is critical , you have a highway leading directly from Neboloshi towards Tikhvin - not a single swamp to bother you .
When you are in Tikhvin the game is over - it is only a small jump to Lodennoye Pole (again no swamps but 1 annoying river crossing) where you join the Finns and seal Leningrad in .

Now if the Russian somehow finds the time and troops to make a highly unnatural deep defence line at Nebolochi and in the hills East of there then he can't establish simultaneously a heavy and deep defence line along the Volkhov River .
In that case you strike directly North both with the 4 PzA and the 16th .
As distance is small , progress will be faster and you simply barrel through towards Novaya Ladoga .
Actually in 1 game I found that it was easier that way as my opponent who wanted to defend NE gave me too much time to pocket and operate towards North where I wanted . But giving the German extra time in 1941 is rarely a good idea .

Admittedly I have never played against somebody who would pump so many troops so early to the Leningrad area to be able to defend BOTH Chudovo and Nebolochi .
But I suspect that it would require so many troops that he'd get trashed seriously in the South and/or Center .

Perhaps it would be worth it but I don't think that there is a Soviet player out there who could withstand the psychological pressure when there are 2 Panzer Armies rushing to Moscow and nothing serious available to stop them :)



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