Ground Bombing routine is rubbish

Ground Bombing routine is rubbish (Full Version)

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Rex Bellator -> Ground Bombing routine is rubbish (9/22/2002 8:35:51 PM)
I'm still playing this great game but am posting this thread out of sheer frustration with the silly way the game decides results of Ground Attack missions. The game makes one unit take all the damage of a raid, while all others escape unscathed. Example: In a current PBEm game I have been trying to bomb Japanese troops Lae. There are several AA and CD units, Engineers, plus a couple of Regiments. Needless to say it is the Regiments themselves that are primarily stopping me from capturing the base. Whenever I launch a Ground Attack mission from PM or Dobadura, my large fresh forces of Medium bombers bomb the target and hit only one unit - and it is the [I]same unit every time[/I] . It is a paltry Jap AA unit, which takes virtually no damage as the game seems to apply a % loss rate to whatever is hit. This is making those Medium bombers useless at their primary function. There urgently needs to be a revision of the ground bombing routine. At minimum, there should be at least a chance of another unit at the base getting the bombload dumped on top of them. However, what is really needed is for ALL units at a target location to take damage from a raid. I'd imagine that those Regiments, AA guns, Engineers and CD guns are thoroughly mixed up in defense of Lae, not sat miles apart from each other in tight little packets. I hope this can be implimented asap, although as we are seem to be nearing the end of the patching for UV I doubt that it will be. Hopefully it will be sorted by WITP at the very least.

Mojo -> (9/22/2002 9:48:55 PM)
I've noticed this and wondered what that unit had done to make the Allies so angry that they got specifically targeted for months of airstrikes. I'm pretty sure that at Lae it was some kind of pioneer unit.

Chiteng -> that is the answer (9/23/2002 2:11:44 AM)
You answered your own question. Dont use the ground unit routine UNLESS it allows you to target a specific unit, which it sometimes does. Bomb the port and make them starve

Rex Bellator -> (9/23/2002 3:47:49 AM)
[I]Bomb the port and make them starve[/I] Yeah- that'll cheer up the Aussie Divisions trying to take the place. "Sorry mates, but you're gonna have to sit on this beach for six months while they starve" Strewth! I've been playing the game for months and have never seen an opportunity to target a specific ground unit, please tell me how it's done.

jules -> to chiteng (9/23/2002 3:54:59 AM)
There is a way to specify close air support against single targets ? jules

Chiteng -> well (9/23/2002 6:18:09 AM)
I could be wrong but I recall that early in the game...... When I was trying to take Lunga from the Japs.... The target assignment screen changed as the recon of the target got better or worse. Usuallu it simply lists - jap unit 300 men 15 guns Or something like that, However, seems to me I recall that it wouldvery rarely give actual unit names and you could then designate the target. Since I have NOT done this in months I may be totally all wet. I also may be confusing the intelligence level game settings.

jive1 -> (9/23/2002 6:51:42 AM)
Now you mention this I always seem to be bombing the same target. The target I'm bombing is quite a good one so it hasn't bothered me - but I think you are right - this needs to be looked at.

Top Cat -> (9/23/2002 8:27:22 PM)
My problem is that I find the ground bombing routines far too lethal. In the space of a couple of weeks I've had 2 regiments of Japanese infantry take about 80% casualties from just 2 squadrons of fighter-bombers. Hitler would have loved this kind of result at Dunkirk! These guys are in the jungle (Kokoda Track). And remember 1 hex represents more than 900 square miles of terrain to hide in. In my opinion unless your target decides to go and sit in barracks with a bullseye painted on the roof, casualties should be pretty minimal. Base forces and heavy units (AA, Coastal Guns etc) could be softer targets as by their nature they need to be in one place or are hard to disperse. Any way that's my 2 cents worth. Top Cat.

EricLarsen -> Re: Ground Bombing routine is rubbish (9/23/2002 10:29:58 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rex Bellator [B]Whenever I launch a Ground Attack mission from PM or Dobadura, my large fresh forces of Medium bombers bomb the target and hit only one unit - and it is the [I]same unit every time[/I] . It is a paltry Jap AA unit, which takes virtually no damage as the game seems to apply a % loss rate to whatever is hit.[/B] Rex, I've complained about this very thing so far but to no avail. No one at Matrix or 2by3 has seemed to care about this particualr complaint so far. I certainly hope that they fix the ground attack routine so that the damage is spread around more evenly amongst the ground units. The random choice always seems to pick the same stupid unit turn after turn after turn. I don't use the ground attack feature anymore, I just bomb the airfield or port and use that to attack the ground units there more evenly. Eric Larsen

NorthStar -> Ground Attack (9/23/2002 11:30:49 PM)
In another thread (I don't remember where sorry) someone from Matrix stated that the bombers attack whatever ground unit has the highest Assault value (based on current intelligence, or course). It's a bit strange, I admit, since I agree that the damage should be spread among the troops at the base. However, if it works as advertised, at least it does allow you to attack the most dangerous unit. Based on this though, I don't know why it would be attacking an AA unit, which has no assault value. It should be going after the infantry, like you want it too. Two thoughts: Maybe you don't have enough good inteligence for the bombers to identify the dangerous infantry? Or maybe, your intelligence is dead wrong and there is no infantry there? I personally have no problem with bombers attacking infantry: either my own or the AI's. They always seem to go for the biggest infantry unit.

Apollo11 -> PBEM house rules sould be used here... (9/24/2002 4:37:05 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Top Cat [B]My problem is that I find the ground bombing routines far too lethal. In the space of a couple of weeks I've had 2 regiments of Japanese infantry take about 80% casualties from just 2 squadrons of fighter-bombers. Hitler would have loved this kind of result at Dunkirk! These guys are in the jungle (Kokoda Track). And remember 1 hex represents more than 900 square miles of terrain to hide in. In my opinion unless your target decides to go and sit in barracks with a bullseye painted on the roof, casualties should be pretty minimal. Base forces and heavy units (AA, Coastal Guns etc) could be softer targets as by their nature they need to be in one place or are hard to disperse. Any way that's my 2 cents worth. Top Cat. [/B][/QUOTE] PBEM house rules sould be used here... In my current PBEM we (Oleg as Allies and me as Japanese) forbade all fighter-bomber attacks on ground units until this is, hopefully, solved in v1.50 patch. Leo "Apollo11"

Basement Command -> (9/24/2002 7:01:08 AM)
Try changing the targetting. I seem to get a range of ground units damaged when I switch between Air base and Port and ground unit targetting... hmmmm got to admit I'm not certain that it switched between individual ground units when ****ing targets, but when things got 'stale" (very little ground unit damage after multpile sorties) changing the targeting would sometimes cause a ground unit to take losses when it seemed that everyone had run into their bunkers or my pilots were getting kinda weary and no losses were being incurred. Kinda hard to doublecheck whle sitting here at work though (Ahem).

EricLarsen -> Re: Ground Attack (9/24/2002 9:55:21 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NorthStar [B]In another thread (I don't remember where sorry) someone from Matrix stated that the bombers attack whatever ground unit has the highest Assault value (based on current intelligence, or course).[/B] Northstar, If that were the case then the game has a bug in the target selection. I tracked one game where the IJN had 2 regiments in Gili Gili which I attacked many times over a long period of time. I even looked at the other side's units to see the results of my ground attacks. The program selected one combat unit to pound almost exclusively until it was almost completely dead with all the stuff appearing on the left side in parentheses. It left the other regiment virtually unscathed in comparison. Since I always ran a recon flight over the target the turn before bombing I always had good current intel. The program didn't pick the unit with the highest assault value in my example so I'm thinking that the program has a problem here. The other bad problem is that enemy ground units at a friendly base that have a bunch of supply don't get the supply reduced by bombing as does the supply at a base when it gets bombed. The regiment in my example above had over 5,000 points of supply while the other had over 3,000 points. The one with the 5,000 points was the one that got mauled yet the supply never got reduced by bombing, just a slow reduction for the supplies the unit used itself turn to turn. Now that should be fixed so that units can only carry a set amount of supply and not get overloaded with supply when at an enemy base and transports come in. I also think that enemy units at a friendly base should lose supply when bombed or bombarded. Eric Larsen

NorthStar -> Re: Re: Ground Attack (9/26/2002 12:14:04 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by EricLarsen [B][QUOTE]Originally posted by NorthStar [B]In another thread (I don't remember where sorry) someone from Matrix stated that the bombers attack whatever ground unit has the highest Assault value (based on current intelligence, or course).[/B] Northstar, If that were the case then the game has a bug in the target selection. I tracked one game where the IJN had 2 regiments in Gili Gili which I attacked many times over a long period of time. I even looked at the other side's units to see the results of my ground attacks. The program selected one combat unit to pound almost exclusively until it was almost completely dead with all the stuff appearing on the left side in parentheses. It left the other regiment virtually unscathed in comparison. Since I always ran a recon flight over the target the turn before bombing I always had good current intel. The program didn't pick the unit with the highest assault value in my example so I'm thinking that the program has a problem here. The other bad problem is that enemy ground units at a friendly base that have a bunch of supply don't get the supply reduced by bombing as does the supply at a base when it gets bombed. The regiment in my example above had over 5,000 points of supply while the other had over 3,000 points. The one with the 5,000 points was the one that got mauled yet the supply never got reduced by bombing, just a slow reduction for the supplies the unit used itself turn to turn. Now that should be fixed so that units can only carry a set amount of supply and not get overloaded with supply when at an enemy base and transports come in. I also think that enemy units at a friendly base should lose supply when bombed or bombarded. Eric Larsen [/B][/QUOTE] OK, I don't want to start any fights here, and I readily admit that I know about 10% or what anyone else on these boards knows about the reality of these issues. But,. . . The question now becomes how the computer determines what unit has the highest assault value. Can recon aircraft tell the difference between a disabled squad (in paranthesis) and an active one? If it is just counting men and guns, it could conceiveably think that a unit with a larger number of men is the one with the largest assault value, even if most of the squads are disabled. Just a thought, and a fairly simple test would answer it. Let a unit be pounded and disabled, then withdraw part of the unit (so it is numerically inferior) and see if the computer re-targets. (No comment on right or wrong here, just thinking aloud as it were.) Just to reiterate, I've never seen some of the weirder issues reported here (that is, bombers attacking AA units), but that, of course, doesn't mean it isn't happening. I agree with you on the supply issue. The basic problem here is that the size of supply/fuel stockpiles is not limited by base size, which is IMHO an oversight.

Yamamoto -> Re: Re: Re: Ground Attack (9/26/2002 1:23:10 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NorthStar [B] Just to reiterate, I've never seen some of the weirder issues reported here (that is, bombers attacking AA units), but that, of course, doesn't mean it isn't happening. [/B][/QUOTE] What is weird about bombers attacking AA units. The designers said (somewhere on this forum) that bombers would attack the highest threat. Since the bombers have to face the AA fire anyway, why not try and wipe it out first? That's what I'd want my units trying to do. Yamamoto

Rex Bellator -> Wierd? It's downright ridiculous! (9/26/2002 9:06:39 AM)
There's nothing wrong with aircraft bombing an AA unit per se. But in my current game they do it to the total exclusion of every other unit there, they do it again and again on every bombing raid, and inflict usually around 10 men casualties no matter how large the raid so they can never actually kill the silly little thing outright anyway. It's plain broke, and if I hadn't grounded the Air Force as they are incapable of doing their job there, then they would be still be trying to bomb that same unit on VJ day. I don't buy the AI attempting to target the highest assault value theory, because it simply isn't something I see. There's no problem with recon, I have been bombing Lae's airbase for weeks, and Lightnings are accompanying every raid - I have everything thoroughly spotted several times over. One problem definitely lies with the target selection, it is almost like it is exclusively attacking the top counter on a stack of unit counters and ignoring everything else beneath. It needs randomising at the very least. The second problem is that it is only hitting one unit at the target, and these are big raids consisting of WW2 Medium bombers at medium altitude. Ever heard of C.E.P.? Then just think of how a Japanese commander would have prepared a defense of a base, placing his units for mutual protection. If for some bizarre reason you did want to massively bomb 5 small AA guns and totally and completely miss the thousands of other men and their supplies mixed in around them, then you need to have invented laser guided munitions 30 years early. In fact we still haven't got to that miracle 100% level of precision which I see in those raids even today.

Wilhammer -> (9/26/2002 7:54:26 PM)
Simple solution is to reduce the effectiveness of the attack bombardment values, and then apply it to all units in the hex. =============== Reminds me of the Panzerblitz/Panzer Leader days. In PB, artillery hit units, and the fire was devided up by the number of units, and then applied to each unit. The tactic of the defense was to put a wagon with every stack, so if you had a bunker and a wagon, the fire was halved against the bunker. I PL, they reduced the fire of the artillery power of the units, but applied that same power against each unit in the hex. *If you don't know PB/PL, that means I am too damned old :)* I cut my teeth on those wargames in the late 70s. ================ Since the non-fighter bomber/dive bomber strikes are really area fire, having the game target individual units is just plain wrong. What would be nice is CAS as a mission for FBs/DBs. This would only apply if you attacked units you were in the same hex with with your ground forces. If not, then FBs/DBs employ area fire like level bombers.

EricLarsen -> Re: Re: Re: Ground Attack (9/26/2002 9:51:57 PM)
Originally posted by NorthStar [B]I agree with you on the supply issue. The basic problem here is that the size of supply/fuel stockpiles is not limited by base size, which is IMHO an oversight. [/B] Northstar, I think you missed my point on supply. It's not the amount of supply that can be stored at a base, it is the amount of supply carried by a unit at an enemy base - ie. the unit isn't at a friendly base. I actually tracked this problem for many turns as well as wathcing the ground attacks and which units were picked on. I'm talking about these units at an enemy base getting supplied by transport and getting thousands of points of supply to carry internally. While the friendly units at a friendly base will suffer supply attrition because the base suffers supply attrition, enemy units at that friendly base suffer absolutely zero supply attrition from bombing or bombardment. You could end up with a situation where the friendly units at that friendly base get run out of supplies by bombing while the enemy unit there suffers no supply consequences whatsoever from being bombed and bombarded. That is a bug and it needs to be fixed! Plus I agree there should be some limit on how much supply and fuel a base can carry, and there should be a limit as to how much supply units at an enemy base can carry as well considering they don't have a base to store it at. I tracked the ground attack pretty well and the program just doesn't track the highest assualt value. It seems to center on one unit exclusively, and I watched as 1 IJN regiment got slaughtered while the other was virtually unscathed - probably was just losing a bit because of the malaria. In my recent game as the Allies against the AI IJN I can see that the majority of my replacements are AA and engineers, no combat troops yet. Eric Larsen

NorthStar -> Re: Re: Re: Re: Ground Attack (9/26/2002 11:38:49 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by EricLarsen [B]Northstar, I think you missed my point on supply. . . .SNIP [/B][/QUOTE] I didn't miss it, so much as I talked (typed?) around it. What I meant (but didn't exactly say) was that troops in an enemy base hex are, essentially, at a size 0 base as far as they are concerned. The maximum supply level should be based on base size, and a Size 0 base (stacking supply crates under palm trees) should have a fairly limited supply levels. Although, I suppose that if the limit was too strict, it would make successful invasions nearly impossible.

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