A question about supply in the PI. (Full Version)

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Sredni -> A question about supply in the PI. (4/17/2011 7:48:37 PM)

I got 97k supply dumped in clark field in the opening weeks of the war, those akl's make lovely suicide boats heh, but it's already dwindling. 75k in feb now. And I'm wondering about some specific supply savings. Namely the fighter planes there.

So far I've managed to maintain the 4 p-40 groups there at close to full strength with occasional refills and "upgrades" of stateside groups to free up p-40 e's and b's. However I'm starting to wonder if they're worth the supply usage.

Namely is the cost of operating them and the cost of refilling them with planes occasionally more then I would lose to supply dump hits from bombing? So far they've been able to drive off the relatively light bombing that happens daily (for the most part, they still get occasional hits), there doesn't seem to be any real air effort put into bombing clark or bataan yet. And all the AI's zeroes seem to be around rabaul and in burma so they're actually able to fight off the nates that are around the PI.

And I'm sorely tempted to upgrade that marine regiment to USMC 42 Rifle Squads (from 41 squads). I've had it sitting and resting in bataan thus far as a reserve before I throw it in, hoping it's morale would go up (seems to be stuck at 93, they must know they're doomed), and I noticed it could upgrade to the next years squads, of which I will have enough in the pools within a week or two. But I'm not sure if the supply cost of upgrading it is worthwhile.


So two questions for ya'll to weigh in on:

1. Do ya'll think the supply cost of operating and maintaining the 4 PI fighter squadrons is worthwhile vs the supply cost of daily light bomber raids?

2. Would the improvement of upgrading the 4th marine regiment to USMC 42 rifle quads be worth considering? How much of an improvement in performance does the 42 squad get compared to the 41, and how much does it cost to upgrade 93 squads in supply anyways?


So there ya go, 2 questions [:D]. Opinions and advice on this are appreciated.



topeverest -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/17/2011 8:31:42 PM)

2. nope, dont do it - ever
1. If you have a good foe, he or she will rip apart your fighter squadrons after a few tries, but they are good to have there just to put some threat in the Empire player's mind.

If you pushed 100K supply to PI, you should be thinking about how to stay alive as long as possible and use PI as a forward sub base. Dont let Clark go without a full and complete defense.



Alfred -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/17/2011 11:15:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

1. Do ya'll think the supply cost of operating and maintaining the 4 PI fighter squadrons is worthwhile vs the supply cost of daily light bomber raids?

In the circumstances you have outlined, yes for the following reasons:

(a) Just 1 successful base supply hit would destroy about 750 supply points. That is much more than the expedniture of 1/3 supply point per aircraft on CAP.
(b) Best place to use up your stocks of P-40B are in China and the Philippines in the first few months, particularly if the main opposition is Nates.
(c) Great pilot training.
(d) In the overall scheme of things, particularly in the context of LCU VP losses in the Philippines, the additional VPs you present to Japan from downing Allied fighters in the Philippines, is quite small and well worthwhile in a sdtrategic sense.

2. Would the improvement of upgrading the 4th marine regiment to USMC 42 rifle quads be worth considering? How much of an improvement in performance does the 42 squad get compared to the 41, and how much does it cost to upgrade 93 squads in supply anyways?

No.

(a) Airplane supply upgrade cost, and AFAIK it equally applies to LCU upgrades, is the load cost.
(b) By itself the marines constitute too small a part of the overall Allied defence force to make much of a difference. Better to keep the '42 squads for filling up the saved cadre or resurrected unit subsequently.


Alfred



bradfordkay -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/18/2011 1:08:05 AM)

1. Do ya'll think the supply cost of operating and maintaining the 4 PI fighter squadrons is worthwhile vs the supply cost of daily light bomber raids?



Yes. If you can take out some of his experienced pilots in the early going while they are still flying Nates, then you have made the cost worthwhile. You can't remove those squadrons from the PI, and the place isn't going to hold out indefinitely anyway, so why not make it as expensive as possible for your enemy. The only time I would not consider it worthwhile would be in a game where your opponent made an early effort to take Hawaii. In that case, you would need those aircraft in the fight over Hawaii...



erstad -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/18/2011 4:40:31 AM)

quote:

(a) Just 1 successful base supply hit would destroy about 750 supply points. That is much more than the expedniture of 1/3 supply point per aircraft on CAP.


I don't believe this is current. This might be channeling the Witp-classic conventional wisdom that a supply hit is about 1%, but in AE I believe the loss ranges between 1 and (effect*anti-soft)/100.

So, for the typical 250kg GP bomb, that would be (551*55)/100 ~= 300.

I don't know exactly what "1 to 300" means but if it's a uniform distribution a typical hit would be 150.



Alfred -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/18/2011 6:58:42 AM)

erstad is quite correct to point out that the loss is in a radom range based on (effect*anti-soft)/100.

However I am not convinced that the old rough rule of thumb (with all the inaccuracy that any rough rule of thumb entails) is not still the simplest practical approach to the issue. This is because michaelm has posted that:

The original code treated all supply hits as if they were by the equivalent of 250lb GP bombs based on the new calculations.
So smaller bombs will do less damage, and bigger ones more.

Factors such as terrain and fortification level also reduce the amount of supply destruction, further reducing the practical value to the player of knowing the new destruction range.

Alfred



Bradley7735 -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/18/2011 7:16:51 AM)

As to you upgrading the squads to 42 squads......

You'll have to decide if you want to use the supply. I can't speak to that with a lot of knowledge...

But, upgrading from 41 to 42 squads does not hurt your pool. You'll just upgrade your squads in the LCU. They don't deduct from the pool. The combat bonuses go up a lot from the 41 squads. I would think that that would be worth it. I haven't crunched how much supply it would take. And, a 41 squad is the same VP as a 42 squad. So, you won't lose more points by having better Marines die.



castor troy -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/18/2011 8:38:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

erstad is quite correct to point out that the loss is in a radom range based on (effect*anti-soft)/100.

However I am not convinced that the old rough rule of thumb (with all the inaccuracy that any rough rule of thumb entails) is not still the simplest practical approach to the issue. This is because michaelm has posted that:

The original code treated all supply hits as if they were by the equivalent of 250lb GP bombs based on the new calculations.
So smaller bombs will do less damage, and bigger ones more.

Factors such as terrain and fortification level also reduce the amount of supply destruction, further reducing the practical value to the player of knowing the new destruction range.

Alfred



the rule of thumb with the 1% per hit leads to the problem that 1% of 200.000 might mean much more than 1% of 10.000 while in both cases the actual supply loss is the same when itīs the "effect" of the weapon instead of the 1% of the base supply.



Sredni -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/19/2011 9:47:22 PM)

All right, thanks all for the advice. I'm keeping the planes around and will until the AI starts brutalizing the place with zero sweeps and heavy airfield bombing. I decided not to upgrade the marine regiment as it's ultimately lack of supply that kills you in the PI and not lack of firepower. I dunno how much supply it is to upgrade, but I don't imagine it's cheap, and the supply is probably better used keeping the units there alive.



DrewMatrix -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/20/2011 6:18:07 PM)

As a semi answer to your question:

Re Aircraft and crews I withdraw all I can (even if I can't get them back). You win by having a ratio of points vs your opponents so you want to lose as few points as you can (3x a small number of points for your opponent is less than 3x a larger number of points for your opponent)

Re supplies at Clark:
I move all my combat troops and sufficient HQs to Manilla, not to Clark nor Bataan. And I set the supply request for Manilla really high to suck all the supplies possible, including those at Clark Field, to Manilla. With all that supply and with the advantage of the terrain in Manilla you can hold out in Manilla for an awfully long time before getting ground down. And during all that time the IJ player is losing troops too, burning supplies and not doing something else with those units.

Drew S.



String -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/20/2011 8:11:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

As a semi answer to your question:

Re Aircraft and crews I withdraw all I can (even if I can't get them back). You win by having a ratio of points vs your opponents so you want to lose as few points as you can (3x a small number of points for your opponent is less than 3x a larger number of points for your opponent)

Re supplies at Clark:
I move all my combat troops and sufficient HQs to Manilla, not to Clark nor Bataan. And I set the supply request for Manilla really high to suck all the supplies possible, including those at Clark Field, to Manilla. With all that supply and with the advantage of the terrain in Manilla you can hold out in Manilla for an awfully long time before getting ground down. And during all that time the IJ player is losing troops too, burning supplies and not doing something else with those units.

Drew S.



Actually, unlike in the original, in AE Clark Field has a better terrain bonus (jungle rough - x3) than Manila (light urban - x2)



DrewMatrix -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/20/2011 11:20:57 PM)



quote:

Actually, unlike in the original, in AE Clark Field has a better terrain bonus (jungle rough - x3) than Manila (light urban - x2)


I must be living in the past.

Does the population and LI in the Manilla hex give you a trickle of supplies?

Drew S.



Sardaukar -> RE: A question about supply in the PI. (4/22/2011 9:53:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle



quote:

Actually, unlike in the original, in AE Clark Field has a better terrain bonus (jungle rough - x3) than Manila (light urban - x2)


I must be living in the past.

Does the population and LI in the Manilla hex give you a trickle of supplies?

Drew S.


It gives you some supply..but industry output should stop when enemy enters that hex. I am not sure if that actually happens in recent versions, but that is how it was supposedly work, production should stop when enemy in same hex.



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