December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (Full Version)

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Captain B -> December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/17/2011 10:39:09 PM)

OK,

I have read the rule book again...It clearly states that December is supposed to be snow in Europe Zone. It is now December 4, 1941, playing the grand campaign, and having what I thought was finally figured out when winter is and when to dig in... All of my units in the Black Sea Region, should just be under SNOW! Not blizzard conditions. Moved the bulk of the rumanian army there to give me two months less blizzard )December and February, and one and one-half month more clear weather (May 1 - June 19). Is this a bug or is the manual wrong? The weather around the Black Sea (and for that matter the Adriatic) is a lot more pleasant than those nasty moscow winters.

Just when I thought I had a strategy to lower casualties in Dec!

The wording in the rule book is:

The following rules impact the Axis player in the section of the map area delineated by
coordinates X>72 or X>54 AND Y<95 during Blizzard turns in any scenario that includes the
months of December 1941 through February 1942. With the exception of the supply modifier
(22.3.4) Finnish units as well as all Axis Ski and Mountain units of any nationality are not
affected by any first winter rules.

If you are in a SNOW turn (well at least supposed to be according to the table...should the blizzard rules NOT apply?

HELP!




bevans -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/18/2011 12:28:04 AM)

Those co-ordinates - the 54/72 line - defines a relatively benign climate zone for the first winter; east/north of that means winter is blizzards. There are snow turns in December reflecting the weather for that last German push at Moscow. And yes, for snow turns, blizzard rules do not apply and the Wehrmacht is actually very effective during these turns. After that it is blizzards, more blizzards and nothing but blizzards. Do you have random weather on or off?



Captain B -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/18/2011 2:20:22 AM)

Using non-random weather...and in December, in the Europe zone, the weather is supposed to be snow...not blizzard. My weather screen shows blizzard in all 4 zones....not what the manual says!



randallw -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/18/2011 3:56:26 AM)

I think you are a little confused.  The area that's mentioned by the X-Y coords is where the Axis receive extra punishment if it is a 1941 blizzard turn; it is NOT saying that a blizzard only happens in those X-Y areas.



Varity -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/18/2011 8:54:04 PM)

I'm having the same problem.

Like the op, I'm currently on turn 25 of the 1941 grand campaign using historical weather and find that my units on the Crimean peninsula at, for instance, (97, 118) are taking damage from the first winter rules.

Furthermore, the weather report shows blizzard conditions for the Europe weather zone whereas the manual in section 22.2.1 lists snow for the EWZ in December.

quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

I think you are a little confused.  The area that's mentioned by the X-Y coords is where the Axis receive extra punishment if it is a 1941 blizzard turn; it is NOT saying that a blizzard only happens in those X-Y areas.


If I go be the rules in the manual, neither should happen: My troops should not be taking damage from first winter rules on hex 97, 118 and the weather conditions in that hex should be snow, not blizzard.

Is this a bug in the game or working as intended and the manual is wrong/misleading/incomplete?



randallw -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/18/2011 11:03:18 PM)

97, 118?  I looked at the weather zone screen, and it's south of the Southern Soviet Zone.  It's the same color as the the Europe zone ( eastern Germany ), but should it be assumed that this southern Crimean area is supposed to have matching weather?

Are you clear on how the X,Y coords work, as described by the manual?  It may be worded a little odd for some people.



randallw -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/18/2011 11:45:26 PM)

Upon further review the snow/blizzard areas do seem to have a problem.



Captain B -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/19/2011 1:38:54 AM)

Thanks Randallw...here is a summary in one screen shot of the apparent bug....wish I could see if someone was looking into this!

In short,
o the weather table says it should be SNOW in Europe
o the weather screen (shift w) says Europe is already engulfed in a Blizzard and Ice Level 7
o Three turns of Snow in November, plus what should be one in December says that the Ice Level should be 4 in Europe, Not 7.
o I really think that this is a bug.

[image]local://upfiles/32700/0543F41A682A470B9E304192C58E038E.jpg[/image]



randallw -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/19/2011 10:33:38 AM)

And the weather is set to historical ( non-random ), correct?



Captain B -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/20/2011 12:21:15 AM)

Yes.



randallw -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/20/2011 7:29:55 AM)

Maybe Helpless should be looking into this.



kswanson1 -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/21/2011 3:58:33 PM)

Yes. I'd like to know the answer to this one as well as I was considering moving a Corps or two of armor back to Germany to refit and avoid the blizzard attrition during the 41-42 winter. I've already railed three divisions back to Berlin and was going to rail another 3 or 4 this turn (i'm on the last turn of snow before the blizzard kicks in in Russian Weather Zones). Also playing historical weather.



Joel Billings -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/22/2011 2:48:24 AM)

It does sound like a bug. This was Gary's code which he adjusted a few times in earlier patches, but obviously something still isn't quite working right or the manual is wrong. Have you seen snow in the Europe zone before during December?



Gandalf -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/22/2011 5:14:08 AM)

Been this way since at least "official" v1.03. (just confirmed)



Captain B -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/22/2011 2:10:04 PM)

Joel,

I'll go ahead and reload v 1.0 and run a quick game through December and get right back to you. Thanks.




Captain B -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/22/2011 3:40:36 PM)

Joel, Just reloaded v 1.0 and ran the scenario through dec (well really just ran the weather through that time...didn't move any units) Here is the screen shot from Dec 4. As you see it says snow in Western Europe, Ice Level 4. The most current version official version shows Western Europe Blizzard Ice Level 7. I didn't move any units into the crimean snow zone to see if they were affected..but I will do that also. So somewhere between 1.0 and 1.03 the weather got untweaked!



[image]local://upfiles/32700/C5EA41A89EA54AAE9CFA84B96594A00D.jpg[/image]



Captain B -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/22/2011 4:20:44 PM)

OK, I took my save file from the last snow turn in Novermber in V 1.03 and loaded it into v1.0. The unit circled in red suffers blizzard effect. The unit circled in blue suffered blizzard effects, but when I moved it to the SNOW area in the crimea, it went back to non-blizzard strngths (well minus the supply that it didn't get originally). The unit circled in black did not suffer supply or blizzard effect because it started in snow conditions,

And obviously the romanian divisions suffered no blizzard effect either! Movement rates appear to be snow rates as well in the snow area vs blizzard movement rates.

[image]local://upfiles/32700/B64163D35DB14E11A5820C1AA2886E13.jpg[/image]



kswanson1 -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/22/2011 5:10:43 PM)

Captian B:

It sounds like the problem is that the weather overview map is showing the incorrect weather conditions within the European Zone. But that the actual weather effects upon units within those zone is WAD. Is that a fair assessment of the results of your testsing Captian B?

Thanks for running through those tests.



Gandalf -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/22/2011 7:49:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kswanson1

Captian B:

It sounds like the problem is that the weather overview map is showing the incorrect weather conditions within the European Zone. But that the actual weather effects upon units within those zone is WAD. Is that a fair assessment of the results of your testsing Captian B?

Thanks for running through those tests.


No... not WAD. I ran the same fast forward test last night and the actual individual hex Ice conditions noted in the upper right corner coincided with the incorrect weather depicted on the weather overview map.

edit: I'll rerun it once more to confirm... Takes about 20 minutes with no moves.

edit: confirmed... the ice levels depicted in the upper right corner for hexes selected in the European weather zone are identical to the Soviet weather zone ice levels in December.



kswanson1 -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/22/2011 8:44:46 PM)

Ok thanks Gandalf. The River Freeze thing is definately important in terms of late war defense. But at the moment I wondering about blizzard attritional effects on my combat units in the Europe Weather Zone. I'm wondering if I should expect uber frost bite for German units hold up in Berlin during the winter of 41-42. I'll try to run some of my own tests this afternoon.



Gandalf -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/23/2011 1:58:51 AM)

I am assuming of course that the river freeze level is a result of the weather being the same in both the European and the Soviet weather zones. This might not be a totally cool assumption but it makes sense to me. Someone tell me if this is an incorrect assumption.



Joel Billings -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/23/2011 5:46:49 AM)

Ice levels go up or down based on the weather. If the weather is blizzard, they will go up faster. Clearly it appears that there is blizzard in the Europe zone when the manual says it should be snow, so that is not WAD (unless the manual is wrong and Gary intended it to be blizzard). As for the first winter effects, AFAIK they are strictly based on two items:

1) Is the weather in the hex blizzard
2) Does the hex fall in the area described in the manual for first winter rules

If both 1 and 2 are true, then units in the hex will suffer 1st winter modifications. We will look into why it's blizzard in Europe in December. My last AI vs AI test shows it blizzard in all of December in Europe, but only snow in February.



kswanson1 -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/23/2011 4:55:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Ice levels go up or down based on the weather. If the weather is blizzard, they will go up faster. Clearly it appears that there is blizzard in the Europe zone when the manual says it should be snow, so that is not WAD (unless the manual is wrong and Gary intended it to be blizzard). As for the first winter effects, AFAIK they are strictly based on two items:

1) Is the weather in the hex blizzard
2) Does the hex fall in the area described in the manual for first winter rules

If both 1 and 2 are true, then units in the hex will suffer 1st winter modifications. We will look into why it's blizzard in Europe in December. My last AI vs AI test shows it blizzard in all of December in Europe, but only snow in February.



Thanks for looking into this Joel.

I'm still unclear as to where the frostbite attrition during the first winter occurs and where it doesn't occur. The manuals deliniations are somewhat confusing to me. Page 291 of the game manual indicates "The following rules impact the Axis Player in the section of the map area delineated by the coordinates X>72 or X>54 AND Y<95 during Blizzard turns in any scenario that includes months of December 1941 through Fenruary 1942."

I put this all onto a screen shot of the game map.

[image]http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/51/frostbitezones.jpg[/image]

http://img535.imageshack.us/f/frostbitezones.jpg/

I picked out the two nodal hexes and show them in yellow on the attached figure. The western most node is hex (54,95) --> (X,Y). The eastern node is hex (72,95). I think this splits the map up into 5 possible zones as I show in the attached figure.

Zone-5: is a frostbite attrition area.

Zone-4 (Green Shaded): ? This seems like it should be a frosbite attrition free area, however according to Captian B's testing, Axis units are suffering attrition well south of the Y=95 hexline. He is showing attrition and supply effects on Axis units that are well into the Crimea.

Zone-3: (Yellow Shaded): ? I assume this is supposed to be frostbite attrition free? Or is that incorrect?

Zone-2: (Blue Zone): ?Is this a frostbite attrition zone or a non-frostbite attrition zone?

Zone-1: (Pink\Red Zone): ?I assume there should be no frosbite attrition in this zone? Is that correct?




Joel Billings -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/23/2011 7:50:44 PM)

Axis can suffer 1st winter penalties in areas 2,4 and 5, but only if it is Dec41-Feb42 and the hex has blizzard weather. Areas 1 and 3 should never suffer 1st winter penalties. Thanks for creating the map so this could be clarified.


I found in the 1.03 beta 2 patch notes the following item:

7. Missing Rule – Section 22.2 should contain an additional exception that states there will be no snow or mud during December 1941 and January 1942 (only Blizzard).


This explains why we are seeing blizzard in the Europe zone in December 1941, while in other Decembers it should be snow.

Just shows why we need that "living" manual that Leo is working on that would contain all the rule corrections/changes to the manual since release.



kswanson1 -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/23/2011 8:07:08 PM)

Thanks Joel.



kswanson1 -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/24/2011 1:33:56 PM)

Additional poop on this subject:

I let the computer play itself in the GC41 campaign last night. Started the game and came back periodically to record critical statistics. I than went to bed while the game was still playing itself. An aside, but you can still open overall Admin Reports while the game is still playing itself.

Numerous observations about the results of blizzard. But fot his thread I just wanted to report that the Europe Weather Zone does go to Snow at the Start of February of 1942.

I was unable to determine if Blizzard Effects shwack Axis units in the Europe Weather Zone during Blizzard as I couldnt figure out a way to look at individual unit stats while the computer is in the middle of playing itself. However, I am in the middle of a PBEM game which is just about to go into the first blizzard. I'll track individual unit stats in the Europe Weather ZOne during blizzard in the PBEM to determine if they suffer frost bite attrition effects.



kswanson1 -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/24/2011 1:37:36 PM)

An unrelated\related Question:

Can iced over Gulf of Leningrad, Sea of Azov, Lake Ladoga, and other Lake Hexes be traversed by ground combat units during Snow and Blizzard? I mean by using normal movement -- not Sea Transport. If yes, at what Ice Level can units start moving across frozen Sea and Lake hexes?



Joel Billings -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/24/2011 11:31:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kswanson1

An unrelated\related Question:

Can iced over Gulf of Leningrad, Sea of Azov, Lake Ladoga, and other Lake Hexes be traversed by ground combat units during Snow and Blizzard? I mean by using normal movement -- not Sea Transport. If yes, at what Ice Level can units start moving across frozen Sea and Lake hexes?


No



kswanson1 -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (4/25/2011 12:49:55 AM)

Thanks Joel.



Varity -> RE: December in Europe - Snow or Blizzard? (5/21/2011 10:11:40 PM)

I find that the problem persists in version 1.04.22.

Europe still has blizzard on turn 25 and the logistics phase event log shows a blizzard result for die roll 5. According to section 22.2.2 the outcome should have been snow for that die roll in December.




[image]local://upfiles/38158/1A801831E69547ACBC92FD6DAB3EDBA4.jpg[/image]



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