Mine Clearing (Full Version)

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TunnelRat -> Mine Clearing (12/24/2000 4:39:00 AM)

SPWAW manual 4.0 states (page 77) that mine-clearing tanks, engineers and infantry may clear mines - tanks and engineers facing or inside mined hex and infantry inside. This is to happen automatically at end of a turn meeting the aforementioned specifications. Is there a relative rate of clearance? Perhaps based upon the density of the mine field? I've noticed that my mine-rams and infantry aren't clearing mines completely at end of turn. Engineers seem to clear all at end of turn. Can someone clarify this for me. Thanks.



kao16 -> (12/24/2000 7:46:00 AM)

The best I have seen is an engineer clearing 4 mines in a turn. Having 3 engineer units clearing the same hex (3, 3, 4) can clear 10 mines from a hex per turn. I know that when I buy mines they are deployed in groups of 5. Therefore, clearing <5 in a turn will not clear the hex no matter who does it. Some nice people who shall remain nameless, when constructing senarios or campaigns cause mines to be deployed in 10's, 15's, 20's per hex. IIRC mine clearing is a function of troop class (engineer vs non-engineer) and suppression. Numbers in the section may have an effect (e.g., full 10 man squad vs 4 surviving members)



Major Destruction -> (12/24/2000 9:41:00 AM)

I think you will find that the experience rating of the engineer unit plays an important role. The higher the experience, the higher the efficiency of the unit. I expect that troop quality might also make some difference. Thus, minor nations might clear mines more slowly than the majors.



bravo.john -> (12/26/2000 11:31:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by kao16: I know that when I buy mines they are deployed in groups of 5. Therefore, clearing <5 in a turn will not clear the hex no matter who does it.
Do you realize that each mine point you buy is actually 10 mines? Putting 5 mines in a hex gives you a mine strength of 50. Takes quite a bit of time to clear 50 mines, especially when under enemy fire. :-)



kao16 -> (12/26/2000 1:00:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by bravo.john: Do you realize that each mine point you buy is actually 10 mines? Putting 5 mines in a hex gives you a mine strength of 50. Takes quite a bit of time to clear 50 mines, especially when under enemy fire. :-)
Incorrect (at least from a quick check). The message on the purchase page is "spend 10 pts to buy 5 mines" or some such.



Kluckenbill -> (12/26/2000 9:32:00 PM)

Here are some things I have experienced in Mine Clearing: Engineers are the best clearing unit once they get there, but they are very slow on foot. Make sure you have them set to ckear and not to lay mines. The mine clearing vehicles occasionaly hit a mine and blow up, this makes them somewhat less effecive than engineers. Regular infantry, also special infantry such as Para's, SS etc. are much less effective than engineers, but better than nothing MG and Snipers units don't clear mines, I think scouts do, but very poorly. Motorcycles and jeeps usually find the mines when they hit them, scouts are reasonably good at finding mines without taking casualties. Units clear mines much more quickly inside the hex than they do adjacent to it. Stacking Engineers can clear a mined hex very quickly. In an assault, I like to find the mines with motorcycles or jeeps, smoke them for protection, shuttle my Engineers up in halftracks, then stack them 3 high to clear the mines. Supressed units won't clear mines, also artillery can set off mines, so as a defender, you have a quandary: If you fire your artillery at the Engineers trying to clear the minefields, you may supress them into inactivity, but you may also clear your own mines with the explosions. Obviously it would be beter to suppress the Engineers with direct fire (MMG's are great for this) but if the attacker is using his smoke properly, this is unlikely. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !



Charles22 -> (12/26/2000 10:13:00 PM)

A couple of more notes here: You can set off a mine by "exiting" a hex known to have mines. Don't think you're safe just because you know absolutely that there is no mines in the hex to which you're moving to. "Crews" also clear mines, I have seen this personally, which, when you think about it, might be a good application outside of the tank that has entered the hex and blown a track. Yes, why not have the crews get out of the tank, who are not in a minehex, waiting, and join in on the mine clearing (assuming these units aren't spotted by the enemy)?



Daniel Oskar -> (12/26/2000 11:16:00 PM)

Will a heavy volume of artillery directed at a mined hex reduce the mine density? I seem to remember that being the case in SP3.



Larry Holt -> (12/26/2000 11:36:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel Oskar: Will a heavy volume of artillery directed at a mined hex reduce the mine density? I seem to remember that being the case in SP3.
I've seen comments that a feature of the later version of SPWAW is that heavy artillery will clear mines. My experience is that 150mm or larger will sometimes expose mines, that is a hex that I have not yet moved up to will now show the skull & bones of a minefield. I have not done any extensive tests on actually clearing mines vice just exposing them. I am not sure how I would know the number of mines remaining after artillery fire to see if it had removed any. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



BlitzSS -> (12/27/2000 1:37:00 AM)

I thought that regular (non Engineer) units had to be in the mined hex to attempt to clear mines, while Engineer units had to be in or adjacent but facing the mined hex.



The MSG -> (12/27/2000 2:04:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by kao16: Incorrect (at least from a quick check). The message on the purchase page is "spend 10 pts to buy 5 mines" or some such.
No, you get 5 "construction" points for that price. Each of those points allows you to place mines, dragonteeth or wire in a single hex, and each placement gives you "10" mines, dragonteeth or wire there. This is of course somewhat of an abstraction, since 10 dragonteeth in a 50 metre line wouldnt stop much unless theyre VERY large [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] ------------------ The MSG



Musashi -> (12/27/2000 2:42:00 AM)

I have not done any extensive tests on actually clearing mines vice just exposing them. I am not sure how I would know the number of mines remaining after artillery fire to see if it had removed any. But this would explain some odd minefield arrangements I've seen after I've softened the enemy expected positions with lots of big guns. You'll turn up some mine hexes you are no where near. Also, I've found Isolated mines hexes that should logically be part of a larger "line". I've crept up on expected mine lines in Assaults and only found a few spots and major clear lanes. Ineffective placement or HE clearance? As mentioned need to experiment objectively. Musashi



Major Destruction -> (12/27/2000 3:23:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by BlitzSS: I thought that regular (non Engineer) units had to be in the mined hex to attempt to clear mines, while Engineer units had to be in or adjacent but facing the mined hex.
Correct



Charles22 -> (12/27/2000 3:23:00 AM)

Musashi: It's also entirely possible that when you see lanes in a minefield, lanes which may not make sense, that either the craters have largely obscured them, or they just haven't been discovered and are in fact there. Sometimes, this, having to spin units around to see the harder to spot objects is annoying, and I've had unsuppressed engineers spun, and sit there for a turn, not see anything, and then spin it the next turn and then it spots the mines. I think that when we get an engineer adjacent to a mine we get the idea that the mine will always be spotted if the engineer hadn't moved that turn, but even after spinning the engineer AND being idle, I have seen that the minefield still wasn't spotted, and that's with experienced german engineers. I could be wrong, but that seems to be what I've observed.



Daniel Oskar -> (12/27/2000 3:28:00 AM)

I've seen the pre assault bombardment expose mines as well. I wonder if the big guns do reduce the density of the field, would big direct fire weapons like the SiG 33 do the same? It might be an express mine clearing method.



Bing -> (12/27/2000 3:36:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel Oskar: I've seen the pre assault bombardment expose mines as well. I wonder if the big guns do reduce the density of the field, would big direct fire weapons like the SiG 33 do the same? It might be an express mine clearing method.
I've done a lot of testing of the "Z" fire option - mostly main guns at hexes I know contain units, bunkers and I suppose mines, too. These were hexes I know contain the foregoing from playing the turn, so I went back and tried Z-fire on replay, when they are unspotted, or just plain not on the board. Thus far, zero effect, the Z-fire neither exposes the units/bunkers/etc or has any effect whatsoever. I think that a bit odd, but there may be a perfectly valid reason for it. Bing



Charles22 -> (12/27/2000 3:47:00 AM)

Bing: What you say may be true, but then again you may not have suppressed the units enough. In any case, are you saying that it doesn't even suppress the enemy, not even one iota? Seems the manual states the contrary.



Bing -> (12/27/2000 4:04:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles22: Bing: What you say may be true, but then again you may not have suppressed the units enough. In any case, are you saying that it doesn't even suppress the enemy, not even one iota? Seems the manual states the contrary.
Remember, these are units which are NOT visible. My experience seems to indicate that firing at a blank hex - i.e. an unspotted unit/bunker/what have you - does absolutely nothing. Does not reveal the unit, does not affect the unit/et al in any way. Others may have had different results, which I would like to hear about. I had thought that Z-fire WOULD at least reveal the unit, but that hasn't happened yet! This is interesting to me, can we have more input? Bing



Charles22 -> (12/27/2000 4:37:00 AM)

Bing: I can prove you're wrong, at least in one respect. Opening bombardment, no units are seen and you find your units suprresed into oblivion. Now maybe regular guns firing direct are put into another class so that bombardment doesn't do anything, but I could swear that I've seen spotted units lose men for the bombardment, so why would the rules change if the unit were unspotted? You seem to be saying that direct-fire bombardment does nothing (at least against unspotted units), but if that were so, why have it as an option in the game? Perhaps when comparing a 75mm FH, to a 75mm Sherman, the Sherman direct-fire bombardment only has 1/2 the effect, but still there would be an effect. [This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited December 26, 2000).]



Major Destruction -> (12/27/2000 4:44:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Bing: My experience seems to indicate that firing at a blank hex - i.e. an unspotted unit/bunker/what have you - does absolutely nothing. Does not reveal the unit, does not affect the unit/et al in any way.
Certain units do not provoke return fire from certain other units. You might get a concealed mmg to expose itself when you z-fire at it using your infantry. It is less likely to return fire if you z-fire at it using your tank. If you suspect a unit in a hex, would you want to z-fire at it using your tank, only to find that the concealed unit is a 75mm ATG? Could prove expensive........ Always better to use your scouts to spot the unit visually. IMO.



Daniel Oskar -> (12/27/2000 4:47:00 AM)

I've seen unspotted infantry pop smoke and run after a bombardment, but never from the Z key. Maybe they are modelling the effect of fuses w/ indirect fire. It would be hard to get an airburst in direct fire!



Charles22 -> (12/27/2000 4:54:00 AM)

Major Destructioin: Unless I'm wrong I believe we were talking about spotting unspotted units which "don't" return fire, and that the only method of spotting it being used, is that you direct-fire bombard it. In any case, direct-fire should suppress the unit, when fired enough times, even if it doesn't expose the hidden unit and it appears Bing believes it does not.



john g -> (12/27/2000 5:09:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by The MSG: No, you get 5 "construction" points for that price. Each of those points allows you to place mines, dragonteeth or wire in a single hex, and each placement gives you "10" mines, dragonteeth or wire there. This is of course somewhat of an abstraction, since 10 dragonteeth in a 50 metre line wouldnt stop much unless theyre VERY large [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
They might not even be dragons teeth, perhaps Rommel's asparagus, the poles planted into fields to tear up gliders while landing. The best tank obstacle I ever saw was on the road between Seoul and the dmz, every few miles a large overpass like structure would cross the road, if needed the concrete over the road would be dropped down to block the road to vehicles, no engineers with satchel charges were going to remove that roughly 100 foot long 15 foot high and 20 foot thick chunk of reinforced concrete. Extending to each side were conventional dragons teeth. Fortunately the S. Koreans still havn't had to use them. In game terms, if you have a either a row of DT mixed with mines or a strip of just DT between rows of mines you really can slow up a force that depends on mine clearing vehicles. Foot engineers are the key to clearing that sort of mixed defense. thanks, John.



Bing -> (12/27/2000 5:14:00 AM)

We're getting closer to the topic as I meant it to be here. First, I should have included a comment to the effect that indirect arty fire does have an effect on unspotted units, though that is not always apparent until an on-map unit DOES get a visual fix. I"ve killed tanks at crossroads, suppressed gobs of inf. units via indirect arty. The point - for me at least - is not why I am using a tank main gun to fire at a blank hex. I don't do that during normal play, as the remark has been made it is best to have scouts or other leg units reveal the unspotted unit. The question in my mind is - and I"ve tested this a number of times - is why the tank main gun does not reveal the unit and have an effect during Z-fire. Large explosions of HE have no effect on a hidden inf. unit during Z-fire, but they certainly do when the same fire is directed at a spotted unit. Are we saying the game is functioning correctly because fire at an unspotted unit would not be accurate, therefore ineffective? I've fired a dozen or more large caliber rounds into a hex I know contains an inf unit, with no effect at all. They magically appear, unharmed, when they want to fire at one of my units .. or will appear when spotted by a leg unit. Perhaps tanks don't see the hidden units as well? But even if they don't, wouldn't a round or two have SOME effect on the hidden unit? Also, I have "sprayed" the landscape with small arms fire a few times, with zero effect, but not to the extent that I tested the tank main gun effect. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong. No big deal, really. I enjoy the game tremendously. Bing



john g -> (12/27/2000 5:15:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by TunnelRat: SPWAW manual 4.0 states (page 77) that mine-clearing tanks, engineers and infantry may clear mines - tanks and engineers facing or inside mined hex and infantry inside. This is to happen automatically at end of a turn meeting the aforementioned specifications. Is there a relative rate of clearance? Perhaps based upon the density of the mine field? I've noticed that my mine-rams and infantry aren't clearing mines completely at end of turn. Engineers seem to clear all at end of turn. Can someone clarify this for me. Thanks.
You can face up to 50 pts of mines, wire, DT per hex. That is a total of 50, if you mix types it averages the types together, put in 40 mines and then add 10 DT, you end up with 25 mines and 25 DT. No single unit can clear 50 mines in one turn. It will take many units or many turns to clear high density minefields. Another gotcha is that defending troops right next to the field will help remove it, you want at least 1 hex seperation. This even applies to engineers set to lay mines, they will remove wire and DT replacing it with mines. thanks, John.



Charles22 -> (12/27/2000 8:45:00 AM)

I have answers. Conducted the following test: 6/41 played human both sides with Germany and USSR. With Germany I used 2 PZIVEs carrying the A0 unit for spotting. The opponent was Russian rifle squads. There was a set of unspotted rifle, and another set that were spotted. Five rounds of direct-fire bombardment were subjected to one particular rifle unit of each category. Results: Spotted rifle suppression after 5 rounds of 75L24: 18 pts. Unspotted rifle suppression after 5 rounds of 75L24: 13pts.



Bing -> (12/27/2000 11:14:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles22: I have answers. Conducted the following test: 6/41 played human both sides with Germany and USSR. With Germany I used 2 PZIVEs carrying the A0 unit for spotting. The opponent was Russian rifle squads. There was a set of unspotted rifle, and another set that were spotted. Five rounds of direct-fire bombardment were subjected to one particular rifle unit of each category. Results: Spotted rifle suppression after 5 rounds of 75L24: 18 pts. Unspotted rifle suppression after 5 rounds of 75L24: 13pts.
Sounds pretty much indicative to me. I also conducted a test, US Ranger unit versus unspotted Panzershreck unit in woods, sprayed them with Z-fire, 6 x carbine and BAR. The Shreck came out of it Pinned, but that didn't prevent them from firing away liie crazy. So I guess it does make a difference, though the unspotted units aren't going to take the damage a spotted one would. That might account for the impression I got there was no effect. Maybe we CAN simulate the Us practice of "spraying the woods" first thing in the morning, to clear out German infiltrators. Worth a try, maybe. Thanks, everyone. This was interesting - to me it was. Bing



bravo.john -> (12/27/2000 1:46:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by kao16: Incorrect (at least from a quick check). The message on the purchase page is "spend 10 pts to buy 5 mines" or some such.
Each mine point on the deploy screen buys 10 mines in one hex, not just 1 mine. It seems the person originally was commmenting about people putting 10,20 ect mines in a hex without realizing that they were putting 50 in every hex! Those 5 "mines" in the buy screen are 5 points that can be used for 50 mines, or you can always put up some wire and AT obstacles in the same area if you really want those mines to last a while. :-) Speaking of which, I've yet to see a vehicle enter a 50 mine hex and survive intact. Worst case, thrown track, most often, blown to bits. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Charles22 -> (12/27/2000 9:44:00 PM)

Bing: AT-rifle units are relentless badgers, perhaps it's a bug. Get this. I was playing as the Brits at one time and I can't recall the nationality of the AT-rifle (perhaps Japanese). AT first I shot at it with direct fire two or three times and he kills the first tank (probably about four hexes away). Then that got me mad and I really started hammering it. He suffered a loss and kept firing and destroyed another tank. This got me even madder so I really opened up, which resulted in another loss to his crew, to which he destroyed another tank (none of them closer then four hexes away). That sucker must've fired AT LEAST 12 times in opfire, I'd never seen anything like it, though I did finally wipe it out. I would like to add, that the 'Z' bombardment I tried had all units in clear terrain, and that the unspotted infantry were 8 hexes away, while the spotted were about 4 hexes away. I don't think the distance traveled in bombardment makes a difference, but that's how the test was ran. What the test shows, from that particular gun, in open terrain, with units in advance state (non-moving though), is that each round will do between 2 or 3 suppression points. Let's say you'll suppress a unit to 99. Well, what'll happen a lot of the time, particularly against highly experienced units, is that you won't see the result until the 'next' turn (or that's my guess anyway), because I know that I never see one of my units bombed into oblivion and then retreat (playing Gerry mostly), but that they will retreat/rout if on my turn I cannot rally them. So, that may mean that the spotting of the unspotted will occur a full turn later than we might be inclined to think. Of course there's a fine line between causing enough suppression to where they 'just show up' and hopefully don't rally, and quite another for them to rout/retreat. Overall, especially if the nation you're fighting has strong morale, the practicality of 'Z' fire to reveal or rout/retreat a unit is fairly nil, but if four or five 75mm units bombard at very likely defensive hex, that might be worth the time and effort. It would be a priceless manuever to weed out an 88flak. Of course I've only tested infantry, but if the object were an 88flak, then surely it would be easier to spot than infantry. It also would serve to place every hex on a hill into a "1" suppression rating if they were all bombarded. This would be particularly helpful, if you encountered opfire from a unit that you know was previously unsuppressed. 'Z' the unit's hex to cut it's accuracy (as the computer is so fond of doing) building, but if there are any more units in the hex, they too will have had a '1' placed on their suppression.



Tombstone -> (12/28/2000 2:23:00 AM)

That 'Z' firing is totally worth it. What else are you doing when you can't see anything? There are times when I see an AT gun fire, but don't get a visual on it. I usually proceed to get every piece of small arms I can on the hex, then get everything larger on it. I found, with relative predictability, that firing with the target tank at the suspicious AP firing hex results in a second shot at the tank... but after putting 10 or 20 or 30 mg or rifle attacks into the hex that I'm free from that particular hex's evil. The limitation is that it takes a HUGE amount of firepower to accomplish that small task. The tactic is of use for elminating outposts in large battles... It's useful, but the amount of fire you really need to pour into single hexes prohibits its use. Tomo



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