RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (Full Version)

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marty_01 -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/22/2011 8:09:41 PM)

This is from the Official German History of WWII.

H. Boog, J. Förster, J. Hoffmann, E. Klink, et al, “Germany and the Second World War: Volume IV: The Attack on the Soviet Union” Pages 764 and 765. Oxford University Press, 1999


http://img163.imageshack.us/i/germanyandthesecondworl.jpg/



Helpless -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/22/2011 8:48:03 PM)

Actually those numbers really matching those reported by Soviet Fronts. The difference is in the planes destroyed on the airfields, because Soviet were reporting only combat planes, while Germans counting everything which was hit, including training airframes or old written off equipment (we don't have them in the game).



Mehring -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/23/2011 6:15:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

The IL-4 is, in my view, mostly useful for partisan resupply, where its range can be used from safe airbases far from the line.  Problem is you'll get very little escort, and your IL-4s get torn up.  I rotate a lot of the DB-3Bs and a couple other medium level-bombers on VVS bases too, but mostly it's what IL-4s do.  And I fly divisional resupply with them from time to time.  They just get shot to hell so easily by any interceptor.  Thus, the low priority for the German.  The German mainly needs to focus on the aircraft that can harm HIM early, so any of the good Soviet Fighter-Bombers (I-16, Mig-3, Yakk, Lagg) and the bombers that can defend themselves well (SB-2s first, IL-2s second, etc.).

Bi-planes are actually quite good in and around Leningrad, and I think that's a good spot for them.  But they're never going to do 'well' against Bf-109Fs and I'd rather hold on to the well-trained pilots (the bi-planes do have good experience and morale) than risk them getting shot down to far superior aircraft.

One of the odd things in my GC'41 is how long it's taking units in NR to repair aircraft.  The larger air units by size (40+ aircraft) are taking forever to repair/replace.  And that's a fair number of IL-4s among that set.

Having played the German side, I just don't see the bi-planes as particularly useful against anything but Romanian and Finnish air forces, and while that's useful, you have far more bi-planes than you need to fight those groups. 


Well, each to their own, but proof of the pudding is in the eating. In my three PBEMs as Russians, I've devastated the Luftwaffe by fall 1941. You're not going to destroy the Luftwaffe by supplying partisans (which, incidentally, don't even seem to benefit from the supply missions anyway).

From My latest PBEM at turn 15 against easily my most able opponent-



[image]local://upfiles/23816/2ED692B8879249A081D65114165CF1E2.jpg[/image]



Mehring -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/23/2011 6:18:40 PM)

All but a handfull of those fighters were destroyed on the ground. And the bombers were escorted by clouds of biplane escorts, among other planes. There are 50+ SB-2 regiments vs 40 IL$, but look who's doing the damage. Proportionately it's the IL4s and they don't get particularly chewed because the escorts are getting chewed in their place-

[image]local://upfiles/23816/FCE3D81901044D27BC8EE8ECA14C5061.jpg[/image]



Mehring -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/23/2011 6:25:46 PM)

....which leaves a highly favourable corelation of forces in the air war-

[image]local://upfiles/23816/E2D8B2194E294D2490C977040C1CC762.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/23/2011 9:09:55 PM)

Mehring,

Interested in hearing your thoughts on this:

I assume you've 'decimated' the LW by predominant AF attacks? Have you 'simply' mass attacked them from the game start and just gradually worn them down with numbers?

As for partisan re-supply. It works just fine in this latest version after a few changes Pav implemented after i noticed a few things during testing. They should now consist of 6-15 plane raids that also drop nkvd squads which motivate the Partisans to do 'stuff'. Let me know if you're not finding this!



heliodorus04 -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 7:47:59 AM)

Hey Mehring, your data have me convinced:  I'm doin' it wrong...
At least it's only turn 10.

I do believe there was a bug in the old version about Partisans not really working right.  I think.  I do think I'm focusing too much on them.



Speedysteve -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 8:57:06 AM)

Partisans were not working as intended before. They are a lot better now



Speedysteve -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 8:59:40 AM)

They're also worth investing in. To give you an example in my last turn thy disrupted about 15 hexes worth of rail in about 5 different areas causing chaos to supply links to the east coupled with mud! Perfect.



Mehring -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 10:24:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Mehring,

Interested in hearing your thoughts on this:

I assume you've 'decimated' the LW by predominant AF attacks? Have you 'simply' mass attacked them from the game start and just gradually worn them down with numbers?

As for partisan re-supply. It works just fine in this latest version after a few changes Pav implemented after i noticed a few things during testing. They should now consist of 6-15 plane raids that also drop nkvd squads which motivate the Partisans to do 'stuff'. Let me know if you're not finding this!

Yes, airfield attacks all the way. Clearly even MiGs and LaGGs don't stand a chance in the air vs even Emils, let alone against Friedrich types. Escorts can only distract the interceptors so the bombers get through and I'm not sure if they do this too well.

When the attacks start depends upon how determinedly the Luftwaffe has attacked previously. I've started with a filter for Russian air units, putting fighters in the frontline when their experience reaches 50 and bombers at 45, both with minimum 50 morale. In the absence of more refined settings, that works ok.

My current game I was a good few turns into the game before I could start to attrite his airforce, Previously I'd been able to start earlier. Either way, once the Russian starts these tactics the german has little time to react before he loses his air superiority on one front after another.



mmarquo -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 2:17:31 PM)

Mehring,

Are your opponents placing their airbases too close to the front?

Marquo [X(]



Mehring -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 3:28:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Mehring,

Are your opponents placing their airbases too close to the front?

Marquo [X(]

To start with, I'd say so, yes. But this is, I believe, because they have all under estimated the potential the 1.03 game gives- rightly or wrongly- a 1941 Russian airforce.

Having withdrawn his airbases to a more prudent distance and resorted to using empty staging bases to mount their missions, I still find myself able to raid airfields and destroy planes, as the screenies show. The game rightly does not tell a player whether or not his fields are in my escort range and every base placement is, at best, an educated guess. The chance of interceptors making a sortie and actually finding their target also declines with the range to target. The interceptors also seem to base their sortie on the bombers' target hex, rather than their flight path which means I can fly unescorted bombers right over fighter bases to hit distant targets without risk of interception.

With his bases further back the losses I inflict decline as do the losses they inflict on me. Either way, the Luftwaffe is increasingly neutralised or marginalised. I believe 1.04 reduces losses anyway, but it is with enormous relief that I can now move on land without fear of 250 losses per interdicting aircraft.

As of turn 15 I'm just starting to get some Pe-3 regiments combat capable. These have a significantly greater range than the other russian fighters and good armour, though they lack other qualities desirable in a fighter. I've yet to see how effective they'll be as long range escorts, further enhancing my target options.



Klydon -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 3:38:06 PM)

@Helio: Put your IL-4's you want to use on resupply missions on night ops and it should be a lot better. Don't forget you can use TB3's for this duty as well and that is all they should do, which in turn would give you some more IL-4's to work with.

I have to say that all this proves is the air model still needs a lot of work.

As far as the Germans having their airfields too close to the front, that is sort of tough. The 109 is a short ranged aircraft. It has to be near the front in order to provide escort for ground missions and also to provide CAP for front line units. Having them back from the front may be more defensive, but then the German units can be bombed to pieces and we have another issue.



Speedysteve -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 3:46:15 PM)

The Air War certainly needs more work and is known throughout the team.

As for planes I use in VVS - as Klydon says the IL-4. I also use TB-3 and DB-3. I even use SB-2's if needed. Basically any transport and non-PE2 level bomber is my approach



mmarquo -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 4:58:54 PM)

Mehring -

I was thinking that at least the Axis player should at least place his airfields beyond the radius of the biplanes...

Marquo



Speedysteve -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 5:22:43 PM)

In truth though the Axis player shouldn't have to
If he is! Especially in 41.



Mehring -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 5:59:37 PM)

I wouldn't have thought so either. Perhaps this situation can arise in large part because German players often give up bombing Russian airfields after turn 1. That's my experience, anyway. Did the Germans continue bombing airfields historically? If so, then maybe the game is more accurate than it's being given credit, allowing the Russian to punish German players for not maintaining pressure. If the Russians send all their air units to reserve they'll pay a terrible price for the Axis ruling the skies. Challenge the Axis airforces and they'll lose planes by the thousand- if the Axis bombs them.



Ketza -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 9:17:17 PM)

I still bomd the Soviet airfields quite frequently after turn 1. You can usually maintain a 4-1 kill ratio or better.



hfarrish -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/24/2011 11:19:04 PM)

The games I have played we had a house rule against airfield attacks past the first turn. I was the Soviet both times and the rule seemed fair. Presumably IRL if the Soviets were capable of destroying the German air force through repeated attacks on bases they would have done so.



Mehring -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/25/2011 12:18:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

Presumably IRL if the Soviets were capable of destroying the German air force through repeated attacks on bases they would have done so.

It's not that simple, even assuming that a protagonist does everything they are capable of. Is the Russian player able to do something historically impossible because of a design error or because the German play deviates greatly from historical actions, thereby creating an ahistorical opportunity? I don't know enough about this aspect of the war to say, I'm just highlighting the issue because going by my opponents and the comments I frequently read about not bombing Russian airfields after T1, it may not be an issue that a lot of players are dealing with.



mmarquo -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/25/2011 2:27:16 AM)

I patched and continued a PBEM towards the end of the 1941 blizzard - what a difference [:)]

My Soviets are now banging their heads againts Axis units which fight back with defensive SU and reserve committment - it is much harder to push 'em back. So, let's see what spring/summer 1942 holds...

Good job, thanks.

Marquo



Baron von Beer -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/25/2011 3:06:23 AM)

Any numbers on how many sorties were made against airfields in the opening days? Read lots of CAS/Interdiction was flown, so I know in WitE I'm hitting the Red's airfields a lot harder than historically done.



randallw -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/25/2011 7:00:44 AM)

I've read that the Soviet Air Force was thrown against the Germans in the first few weeks with some pretty bad ideas; the bombers went out in large numbers without fighter escort, and got clobbered.



Mehring -> RE: new things about 1.04.10 patch beta (4/25/2011 8:07:04 AM)

That might explain why in game the Russian bombers do the exact same in interdiction missions and auto formed recce missions.



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