Anyone give up Moscow? (Soviets) (Full Version)

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Pillar -> Anyone give up Moscow? (Soviets) (4/21/2011 10:34:19 PM)

I'm curious if anyone has considered the strategy as the Soviets of giving up Moscow in order to ensure a hold and powerful counterattack elsewhere.

What do you stand to lose by having Moscow fall? My main concern is the transportation network, and having my forces split for the next two years.

I'm looking for feedback from anyone who has actually done it (against a human) and what actually happened.



Zoetermeer -> RE: Anyone give up Moscow? (Soviets) (4/21/2011 11:05:23 PM)

I haven't ever done it so I can't say, but you lose a huge amount of manpower production (something like 75+ manpower points), not to mention the industry if you can't rail it out in time. If you're trying to decide between Leningrad and Moscow, however, I'd go with keeping Leningrad, since the Axis can release the Finns after it's captured and easily extend their lines. Capturing Leningrad in '41 leaves the Axis in a much better position to hold during the blizzard.



heliodorus04 -> RE: Anyone give up Moscow? (Soviets) (4/21/2011 11:53:04 PM)

Well, I'm about to find out, but it won't be for a few weeks of real time.
I'm on T11 of a GC'41 as Soviets. I can try to keep you posted if you like.

His leading elements are about 7 hexes from Moscow and his main body is about 15 hexes, so I'm not real sure if I can hold it.
But I'm going to try UNLESS he uses his leverage to try to run a very, very long "right hook around Lake Ilmen to release the Finns (my opponent may or may not take Leningrad directly by force, but I'm not sure yet - the reserve rules are hugely beneficial to fighting over cities).

Casualties-wise, I've lost 2.1 million and he's lost 260,000, so I'm doing well on that front.

What you lose?
Well, Moscow is several things to the Germans - most notably an AWESOME place to spend the winter in R&R mode. If the German can hold its flanks, he can definitely hold the city itself.

It makes it much easier to move north towards a link-up at Ladoga (at least for a 1942 pathway, I guess).

It has leading rail production and manpower contributions.

The factories there require multiple turns of rail capacity to move - making it different than every other manufacturing area in the game. That's my chief problem in my game now - do I move factories or do I let them fall hoping that I can retake the city quickly, and that factory damage from fighting will be less than factory damage from movement (no idea on that one).



hfarrish -> RE: Anyone give up Moscow? (Soviets) (4/22/2011 1:38:39 AM)

I've always leaned, by subconscious design, towards protecting Moscow and Leningrad heavily and letting my opponent rampage around a bit in the South. There is so much industry to evacuate in those two cities it seems really difficult to do properly (without seriously impacting your ability to move up reserves), and the release of the Finns in particular is a huge blow if Leningrad falls. Even if he takes Rostov (which I've always managed to hold anyway) or gets to Voronezh (same) what have you really lost?



76mm -> RE: Anyone give up Moscow? (Soviets) (4/22/2011 3:40:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
...do I move factories or do I let them fall hoping that I can retake the city quickly, and that factory damage from fighting will be less than factory damage from movement (no idea on that one).


I thought that if you lose a city for even one turn, you lose ALL the industry in the city?



CheerfullyInsane -> RE: Anyone give up Moscow? (Soviets) (4/22/2011 6:48:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
...do I move factories or do I let them fall hoping that I can retake the city quickly, and that factory damage from fighting will be less than factory damage from movement (no idea on that one).


I thought that if you lose a city for even one turn, you lose ALL the industry in the city?

You do.
Quoting the manual: 21.2 (p. 281)"With the exception of manpower, port, railyard, resource and oil factories, all other factories in captured hexes are destroyed and permanently removed"
(As always, there might be a change in a patch I've missed)

Re. the original thread, I've lost Moscow in a current game, and the biggest hurdle for me is losing that enormous RR-hub. Anything going to the central armies has to go a looong way around to get there.
Then again, he's having trouble holding the flanks, so Moscow should be mine again come spring. :o)



PyleDriver -> RE: Anyone give up Moscow? (Soviets) (4/22/2011 7:20:28 PM)

Never give Moscow up as a frebee, Make the Axis player fight for every mile. The loss of the pop pool of Moscow over the course of 6 months will really hurt the Soviets...



Pillar -> RE: Anyone give up Moscow? (Soviets) (4/23/2011 9:10:28 PM)

What's the reason you can evacuate the factories but not the people?  Just curious.



76mm -> RE: Anyone give up Moscow? (Soviets) (4/24/2011 12:37:59 AM)

The people evacuate themselves.



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