RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (Full Version)

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Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/1/2011 2:54:20 PM)

Turn 8.

The struggle for Leningrad continues. It is hard going but we expand our penetration and encircle some Soviet units at the Luga. Map after German moves.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/6BD46F5BF44C47E898BB4A1F2F2413C6.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/1/2011 2:58:02 PM)

In the center, the situation is fluid. Our panzers are low on fuel, so are limited in their ability to advance. Some local advances are made, and some Soviet units encircled, but they will break out again. Shot after German move.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/E4CD3D449B9C4A2383493D8BC9E58EDF.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/1/2011 3:01:01 PM)

In the South, the cowardly communist hordes decline to fight even at the Dnepr, and withdraw to the east. Shot before German move. Well, STAVKA can read a map too, and the advance at Chernigov did look a bit menacing I guess. There goes the chance for a big pocket at Kiev... Map after recon but before German moves.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/3CE915B4B04C499F8C260A9BD0885550.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/1/2011 3:04:08 PM)

With the Soviets running away, we go factory hunting with the panzers instead. The industry in Nikolaev is blocked from evacuating. In the east, we go for the riches of Dnepropetrovsk, but a stubborn Soviet cavalry division manages to delay the panzers just enough, and we end up one hex from the city. [:(]

[image]local://upfiles/37384/5B4C557A056D484F9A5007D4A93EE3C1.jpg[/image]



Klydon -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/1/2011 3:38:29 PM)

I don't understand why he gave up on the river like that. Did you gas the panzers and he caught on? Where does he think he is going to get encircled behind the river at? At the very least, leave a rearguard or something instead of total abandonment. That is potentially a huge chunk of territory to give up and by giving it up, he narrowed your choices on what to attack to put the threat on the factories, although it will be interesting to see if he tries to cut off that 1st Panzer thrust towards D-town.

Also, don't forget there is a port between Odessa and Nikolaev.

What is left in Leningrad for industry? Whatever he has there is stuck since you clipped the rail line coming out.

Nice job overall so far.



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/1/2011 4:09:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I don't understand why he gave up on the river like that. Did you gas the panzers and he caught on? Where does he think he is going to get encircled behind the river at? At the very least, leave a rearguard or something instead of total abandonment. That is potentially a huge chunk of territory to give up and by giving it up, he narrowed your choices on what to attack to put the threat on the factories,


Nope, I didn't gas them. I think he got scared by the thrust from north, the one with the cavalry division leading. In fact, the SS-division there had like 10 MPs, so it wasn't much of a threat, but he couldn't know that.

But I don't really think it was a mistake to withdraw. There is not much there of worth, and with the front up at Bryansk in tatters, I think it was the prudent move.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
although it will be interesting to see if he tries to cut off that 1st Panzer thrust towards D-town.


I don't think he can do that, though it might be possible. I could have done that better actually. If I had placed the SS-division in the spot indicated by the yellow dot, he couldn't have cut them off. With unit in every other hex, the russkies cannot get in between unless he starts adjacent, as almost no Soviet units can move from ZOC to ZOC after having moved one hex.
[image]local://upfiles/37384/580C9F1DD46D40A8B0E3BF70301EA1EF.jpg[/image]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

What is left in Leningrad for industry? Whatever he has there is stuck since you clipped the rail line coming out.



As far as I can tell, everything is still there.




Klydon -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/1/2011 6:05:09 PM)

The big prizes in Leningrad are the KV factory and the pile of armaments. Should also have a vehicle factory there which is also big and the T50 factory will flip over to T34 production at some point. I will be somewhat surprised if he doesn't try to launch some counter attacks to try to push back some of those tired looking divisions in your spearhead, but the damage has already been done. He won't get anything out of Leningrad at this point.

How have you done so far on wiping out his industry?



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/2/2011 5:07:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
although it will be interesting to see if he tries to cut off that 1st Panzer thrust towards D-town.


I don't think he can do that,


Oops! He could allright! That was a classic example of underestimating the enemy!

I should have added "unless there is cavalry around".

Map before German move turn 9.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/E0032D070E7A4E6BBD7367DD0E410DEF.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/2/2011 5:09:08 PM)

Turn 9. The largest part of offensive action in AGS is spent on extricating the surrounded panzer divisions. Industry is stuck in Krementchug and Nikolaev by adjacent German units. Map after German move with the panzers relieved, somewhat shaken but not stirred.


[image]local://upfiles/37384/7462A814030549978AA3ADA1BD23ABEE.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/2/2011 5:10:02 PM)

In the center, the 18th panzer division captures Rzhev in a coup de main. It appears enemy resistance in front of Moscow is rather weak. Unfortunately, so are our forces. There is only a single panzer corps in the Vyazma - Rzhev area. The other panzers in AGC are south of Bryansk, beset by severe supply difficulties. I should really regroup and focus my efforts in the center. The panzers have kind of just happened to end up where they are, and with the withdrawal of the enemy southern front, that juicy target is gone. However, I am reluctant to waste one of the limited turns of summer weather on just regrouping.

A lone SS panzer brigade takes an opportunity created by the capture of Velikie Luki, and goes joyriding around a large part of the Soviet forces in the area. It leaves a trail of German-controlled hexes, but unfortunately, it is to weak to surround the enemy with any chance of holding the encirclement. Apparently, the brigade commander has read the memoirs of JEB Stuart.

Map after German moves turn 9.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/766A28598D0846288EC70B4F1679993D.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/2/2011 5:12:28 PM)

Outside Leningrad the struggle continues. The Reds managed to push back my leading division and restore supply to their surrounded units south of Leningrad. In my turn I push them back end expand the penetration, reseal the encirclement and press infantry forward.

Meanwhile a panzer corps have gotten into trouble at Staraja Russa. The idea was to explore the right hook, or put pressure on the Soviets to defend against it, but instead my panzer corps got cut off at Staraja Russa by unexpectedly numerous enemy forces. It was just barely that relief forces could push through to them. Well, at least it diverted Soviet forces from Leningrad, but all in all not a happy operation.


[image]local://upfiles/37384/94863019B0CE425A9875EBB4F5C862B8.jpg[/image]



Aussiematto -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/2/2011 5:24:21 PM)

Um - if I read it right, in the north there's an opportunity for the Finns to move through the no-attack line and cut off the northern Ladoga port. It's a little sneaky but, hell, germans need all the help they can to get Leningrad!



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/2/2011 7:28:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: majeloz

Um - if I read it right, in the north there's an opportunity for the Finns to move through the no-attack line and cut off the northern Ladoga port. It's a little sneaky but, hell, germans need all the help they can to get Leningrad!


No, the map is after the German (and Finnish) move, I should have been clearer on that.



Aussiematto -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/2/2011 9:21:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: majeloz

Um - if I read it right, in the north there's an opportunity for the Finns to move through the no-attack line and cut off the northern Ladoga port. It's a little sneaky but, hell, germans need all the help they can to get Leningrad!


No, the map is after the German (and Finnish) move, I should have been clearer on that.


No problems - just a thought. Finn sneak through is the perfect technique vs the last ladoga port -- just used it on Cpn Flam. Rather than attacking port directly, which is normally well defended, crush the unit next to it and let the finns advance through to link (see screen shots in Flam's AAR vs me -- and yes, he has allowed me to view said AAR since it is time-lagged).

returning to the bit above about withdrawing from the Dnepr. I think the Soviet move was correct strategically, but operationally, I'd have preferred to see him drop a small chequerboard off in front to slow down the advance.

Nasty near Dnepropetrovsk with those cut off panzers... happens to me all the time cos I get over-aggressive and forget he can create units out of thin air ;). Did you get them out and, in the end, is it better to advance slower, not get cut off but take 2 turns to get there? or try for it, get cut off, and then dig yourself out but, essentially, be further ahead?




Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/3/2011 8:32:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: majeloz

Finn sneak through is the perfect technique vs the last ladoga port -- just used it on Cpn Flam. Rather than attacking port directly, which is normally well defended, crush the unit next to it and let the finns advance through to link (see screen shots in Flam's AAR vs me -- and yes, he has allowed me to view said AAR since it is time-lagged).


There will be some Finn sneak through, or Finn sneak around actually, you will see it in the next installment, coming soon to an AAR near you. [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: majeloz
Nasty near Dnepropetrovsk with those cut off panzers... happens to me all the time cos I get over-aggressive and forget he can create units out of thin air ;). Did you get them out and, in the end, is it better to advance slower, not get cut off but take 2 turns to get there? or try for it, get cut off, and then dig yourself out but, essentially, be further ahead?


Yep, I got them out, see #39. I would say it is normally not good to get them cut off. In my experience it will take them a turn or so to recover supply and fuel wise, unless you can fly in massive amounts, and I think it will not be worth it in terms of territory gained. The above example was unnecessary and I badly underestimated enemy strength in the area. I should have known really, playing the Soviets in a parallel AAR, i know there are tons of cavalry appearing in this area at about this time. OTOH there were the riches of Dnepropetrovsk that lured me on, and if I had gotten a unit adjacent to the city to prevent evacuation of the industry, it would have been worth it.

The cases when I think it is worth it to get some panzers cut off is when I can take a city or do bold moves to wrong-foot the Sovs and their forces are weak, then I will take the risk. Even the trail of flipped hexes can be a big problem for the soviets in 1941. More of that to follow...



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/3/2011 5:13:23 PM)

Turn 10. Leningrad, after German move, The going is tough, but the encircled Soviet divisions are eliminated, and progress is made to the east.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/1A94860804794013945461A40F252451.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/3/2011 5:19:38 PM)

In the center, a bold advance led by the Grossdeutschland regiment captures Orel. That panzer corps had recieved a HQ buildup. They might be setting themselves up for being surrounded, but I sense enemy forces in the area are weak. In fact, the Soviet front in the center seems in some disarray, while they are much stronger in the south.

At Rzhev, the XXXIX panzer corps aims northwest, aided by infantry of the 9th army, to encircle the Soviet defenders of the bulge north of Smolensk, but the attempt peters out due to stubborn Soviet resistance and lack of fuel.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/08E5EBE1AFCE4626B7DDD40C570F17F8.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/3/2011 5:23:13 PM)

In the south, a scuffle in the Dnepr bend ends in a poorly executed encirclement, that the Soviets will easily break.

Also, Odessa falls to the efforts of the Rumanians (almost unadided by a German division, there as advisers). Every school child in Rumania recieves a bar of chocolate to celebrate the victory!

[image]local://upfiles/37384/84A87B4B65074440890E83A3DF93717D.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/3/2011 5:24:26 PM)

Lastly the body count after turn 10.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/EF0CA0C81B5C401F8F45FD9C80B2728F.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/3/2011 5:25:08 PM)

And production, filtered to German production.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/E87C30AE261C4E2999C3AFD1BC73078D.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/3/2011 5:28:31 PM)

Turn 11.

At Leningrad, the panzers finally break out in open country (by open meaning relatively undefended, not free of trees). It seems the fate of Leningrad is sealed. The enemy concentration at Novgorod which has been creating trouble for the LVII panzer corps at Staraja Russa are now themselves encircled!

[image]local://upfiles/37384/E375233768BE45C885A8C8CAD9D974D5.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/3/2011 5:31:19 PM)

Up to the northeast, the Finns are curling around the incomplete Soviet defences.

According to my opponent, this is not an oversight, but caused by lack of units to block the no move line.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/CB52B4F858824611914065F1653F145C.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/3/2011 5:35:02 PM)

Turn 11 in the center.

I have gassed up another panzer corps to follow up the advance to Orel last turn. The staggered HQ buildup yields spectacular returns. The Grossdeutschland et consortes were indeed cut off, but only by insignificant enemy forces which are easily brushed aside. A solid encirclement is made, and as an added bonus, 10th motorized division motors into Kaluga.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/3A6E3B5975414366B323660F3427FF3D.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/3/2011 5:40:25 PM)

In the south, the encirclement in the Dnepr bend (broken, of course) is made more solid, and enemy forces frightened out of Zaporozhe, though we couldn't cross the river.

The problem here is that we have travelled obediently down the cul de sac into the Dnepr bend, and now we have to decide where to go and then cross the river. Alternatives are:

1. Aim for the Crimea.
2. Go straight east for Stalino.
3. Northeast for Kharkov, possibly aided by AGC.

I have not decided yet. Of course, there is always the alternative of compromising and trying for all three, and failing. [;)]

[image]local://upfiles/37384/7E4C7252AFA2470CBCAD345922F218F6.jpg[/image]



Mynok -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/3/2011 11:01:59 PM)


He's weakest directly east and that is where the greatest rewards are. Seems pretty clear to me.



Aditia -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/4/2011 1:06:05 AM)

Less small encirclements, more taking of terrain/cities/rail lines is what I would say judging from your screenies. Then again, my only experience with WitE is running away from soviet supermen in 1943 =P



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/4/2011 10:18:26 PM)

Turn 12.

The north. The pieces of a grand plan falls in place. The XXXIX panzer corps at Rzhev was gassed last turn, and now makes a leap forward and captures Kalinin (with industry still there), Torzhok and Vyshni Volochek. At the same time panzers of 4th panzer group aims southeast. Alas, the big plan falters at the last moment. We are one tiny hex from the most stupendous encirclement of all time! Map after German moves turn 12.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/716C7795587D4D9E9235B21EFDACD3D4.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/4/2011 10:25:40 PM)

In the center, Soviet resistance appears to be crumbling! Another panzer corps has had a HQ buildup and now hurls itself through the Soviet lines. Kursk and Tula is taken by panzer spearheads, with the trams still running and the defenders completely surprised (no units in either city). Better still, their industry had not been evacuated!

A couple of mid-size pockets are made. Uncertain if they will hold, but I judged the capture of Tula and Kursk worth it compared to an uncertain pocket.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/0AA59AD4536E4E9189B1AF695D5C3689.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/4/2011 10:28:56 PM)

In the south, the Dnepr is crossed in two places. Sort of a compromise between east and southeast. Soviet resistance appears suddenly weaker than just one or two turns ago.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/BE93173728D94D9E8C422E42E5297E5C.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (5/4/2011 10:31:44 PM)

And a loss count after turn 12.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/4733E562784947B094A0C1D89542C43B.jpg[/image]



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