RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids)

RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (Full Version)

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Schmart -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/23/2011 5:56:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ComradeP They arrive as shells, the reason you don't see them arrive as shells is the same reason you don't see Soviet units arrive as shells if no other units are refitting: they take priority when it comes to replacements because they are refitting, and the replacement segment happens after their arrival (in the same logistics phase). With more units in refit, the reconstituted units won't suck up substantial numbers of replacements, because the replacement system will divide them between refitting units. With all due respect, the only counter-argument I'm seeing in this light, is that "this is the way the game is". No real justification. I guess I would ask: Why is it this way? My argument is that it's not historical to have re-constituted units arrive near full strength. And the solution is simple: have re-constituted units (for both sides) arrive on map as unready shells (ie: turn the auto refit function off for them). I tend to use refit sparingly, such that it generally reflects reality: units pulled back off the line for rest and replacements (although as the Russians, I also tend to have a larger number of such units resting, yet it still has no effect on the re-constituted units). Your statement that not enough units are on refit hence the re-constituted units arrive near full strength suggests that I should put half my army on refit for the sake of it, to "game the system" and not to actually reflect reality, kind of defeats the whole purpose of the refit function and defeats the spirit of a great game like this (using one un-historical action to cancel out another). The in game reality should be that the refit function is used sparingly (hence the refit 'nerf' a while back), funneling the majority of regular replacements to the front, with a minority proportion diverted to re-build and re-fit units.

ComradeP -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/23/2011 6:00:36 PM)
quote: Again when you can't refute whats clearly wrong you point fingers. Normal 2 by 3 MO. Pelton, personnal attacks are your "MO", not mine or that of 2by3. Neither Flavio or me work for 2by3, so you're just insulting 2by3 for no real reason here. I'll report that post, you're just insulting 2by3 for no real reason. What is there to refute? Have you presented any actual facts, in-game examples or screenshots so anyone can verify what you're saying? No, only vague statements. Have I explained to you what's causing what you're seeing and what can be used as a workaround to the annoyance you see? Yes, in a way that everybody can verify. Just place a large number of units on refit as the Soviets, or a smaller number of units as the Axis and the shells will generally be depleted or barely unready at the end of the replacement face. I can do it every single turn, so why can't you? quote: With all due respect, the only counter-argument I'm seeing in this light, is that "this is the way the game is". No real justification. I guess I would ask: Why is it this way? My argument is that it's not historical to have re-constituted units arrive near full strength. And the solution is simple: have re-constituted units (for both sides) arrive on map as unready shells (ie: turn the auto refit function off for them). Gary wants it to be this way it seems, there's little I can say about why the rule is there in its current shape. Also: I'm not going to debate with anyone whether the units arrive as shells or not, as they do.

Joel Billings -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/23/2011 9:28:36 PM)
Boy this arguement is swamping this AAR and should probably go elsewhere. At the risk of making things worse, I'll just say that I think it works the way it does because the German High Command (very high) had a propensity to rebuild dead units and keep more weaker units around than to rebuild existing units. So a lot of manpower was tied up in this effort, since it actually takes quite awhile to rebuild a unit. As it is we already give the German player great freedom to merge units together. So the rules are the way they are to account for some of this bias in the system that the commander's in the East were forced to deal with, with some simplification and abstraction (some for ease of play, some for ease of coding). Again, I don't see a mechanic that is broken, just one that does not perform the way you would like it to. Call this design decision pure and simple. WAD. Sorry you don't like it (believe me I understand why you don't like it). Now please let these guys go back to their AAR and take the arguement elsewhere if you need to keep it going. I want to see how this game is going to turn out even though it's got so many different version's rules in it it's anybodies guess what the results means. It just looks like a fun game to me.

Peltonx -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/23/2011 9:49:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ComradeP quote: Again when you can't refute whats clearly wrong you point fingers. Normal 2 by 3 MO. Pelton, personnal attacks are your "MO", not mine or that of 2by3. Neither Flavio or me work for 2by3, so you're just insulting 2by3 for no real reason here. I'll report that post, you're just insulting 2by3 for no real reason. What is there to refute? Have you presented any actual facts, in-game examples or screenshots so anyone can verify what you're saying? No, only vague statements. Have I explained to you what's causing what you're seeing and what can be used as a workaround to the annoyance you see? Yes, in a way that everybody can verify. Just place a large number of units on refit as the Soviets, or a smaller number of units as the Axis and the shells will generally be depleted or barely unready at the end of the replacement face. I can do it every single turn, so why can't you? quote: With all due respect, the only counter-argument I'm seeing in this light, is that "this is the way the game is". No real justification. I guess I would ask: Why is it this way? My argument is that it's not historical to have re-constituted units arrive near full strength. And the solution is simple: have re-constituted units (for both sides) arrive on map as unready shells (ie: turn the auto refit function off for them). Gary wants it to be this way it seems, there's little I can say about why the rule is there in its current shape. Also: I'm not going to debate with anyone whether the units arrive as shells or not, as they do. Gary wanted the flying pig 1v1 = 2v1 BS which is 100% and still is 100% unhistorical and just plain LAMO! Debate? I am not debating anything. I know what the stupid design is, thats the point the design is nonhistorical. The point is the way they come in as shells is about as stupid a design as possible, it as with many other rules"designs" kicks the German player in the nuts. Its 100% non-historical as was 1v1=2v1, spam bombing airports ect ect Any russian that wants to can 100% exploit this flying pig design. Some are during the blizzard and many are late in game. As 2 by 3 knows for a fact when the units come back they suck up almost all the new recriuts, which means the recriuts go to -50 moral units instead of going to the front to +70 moral units. This system is a joke and a really shty design. I dont care if Obama came up with the idea its just plain non-historical and stupid. No one is fooling anyone. Garys idea of 1v1=2v1 was a joke the same as this shell crap. Is this a historical game or Gary's personal dream game based on what he wants or history? Its a non historical design, put in to handy cap the German side with out question. It can be fixed very easly, but is not. By design. Pelton

Peltonx -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/23/2011 9:56:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joel Billings Boy this arguement is swamping this AAR and should probably go elsewhere. At the risk of making things worse, I'll just say that I think it works the way it does because the German High Command (very high) had a propensity to rebuild dead units and keep more weaker units around than to rebuild existing units. So a lot of manpower was tied up in this effort, since it actually takes quite awhile to rebuild a unit. As it is we already give the German player great freedom to merge units together. So the rules are the way they are to account for some of this bias in the system that the commander's in the East were forced to deal with, with some simplification and abstraction (some for ease of play, some for ease of coding). Again, I don't see a mechanic that is broken, just one that does not perform the way you would like it to. Call this design decision pure and simple. WAD. Sorry you don't like it (believe me I understand why you don't like it). Now please let these guys go back to their AAR and take the arguement elsewhere if you need to keep it going. I want to see how this game is going to turn out even though it's got so many different version's rules in it it's anybodies guess what the results means. It just looks like a fun game to me. Wow your can't be for real. OKH is going to rebuild units while the front is falling apart? To full strength in 1 week? If thats where the recriuts go in say 42 why is the moral of the unit -50 if nation moral is 75? Its this way by design to nothing more then kick the German player in the nuts. The Russian side can send their recriuts to the high moral units first then the sht units, but the German player is stuck with this BS. Normal 2 by 3 MO. Pelton

ComradeP -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/23/2011 10:47:00 PM)
Pelton, the Soviets have the exact same "problem" with units arriving in refit mode. You seem to be so busy ranting that you don't actually read what people post. As usual, you spin it so it looks like it is somehow a deliberate design choice that badly harms the Axis, whilst in reality it applies to both sides and the effects are nowhere near as disastrous as you imply.

Joel Billings -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/23/2011 11:11:58 PM)
They are frozen for 6 turns. Units must take time to build up to higher morale/experience levels. It takes time to move replacements to the front. Much is simplified abstracted, and trade-off by high command is not as easy as you make it sound. I agree in final days, it is not the best, but then in those final days troops could not be easily moved to new units instead. It's a system we feel works reasonably well for the entire game. Many things are simplified so we could complete the game in our lifetime.

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/24/2011 8:09:00 AM)
Turn 176. October 26 1944. Snow in the South and mud for the rest. A front of sorts has been patched together, but the writing is on the wall for Rumania... [image]local://upfiles/37384/A1376F74BF524E3883CFA471E4E3750E.jpg[/image]

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/24/2011 8:18:16 AM)
While some comments and�discussion is nice in an AAR, too extensive discussion will dilute the AAR. The reconstituted units and refit discussion is interesting, but could better be pursued in its own thread, which I will create. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2992659

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/24/2011 8:33:04 AM)
[sm=00000436.gif] Merry Christmas all readers! [image]local://upfiles/37384/06B37B611EA8444197328B461042F0E5.jpg[/image]

Baelfiin -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/24/2011 9:11:35 AM)
Tarhunnas be very carefull of where your German HQ's are when Rumania gets close to getting a city occupied. If they happen to be stacked with a rumanian unit (even a fort) they will be disbanded and gone for the rest of the game. And Merry Xmas to you too !!

ComradeP -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/24/2011 11:55:48 AM)
Remember that you can form a ZOC line along the railroads in Romania to keep them from flipping to Soviet control when the country surrenders. Do keep in mind that you also need a unit in every town/city along the track (keeping it in ZOC is not enough, as towns/cities will automatically switch to the Soviet side when the country surrenders, you should keep a unit in them so they don't convert if you want to keep the rail line open). Doing that will result in your units still being in supply and not being isolated provided they can trace a path to the rail line. You can also create a ZOC line running north/south through Romania (from Hungaria to Bulgaria) which will mean that although the hexes west of the line you control are not in your ZOC will convert to Soviet control, they will automatically convert back to your control in the next logistics phase provided they are not in the ZOC of enemy units. I prefer to do both that and a line along the rail lines, as the rail line will be wrecked if the control over it changes for even a single turn. If the Romanians really do have a higher CV than your German units, you have a bit of a problem there. You could do the gamey thing and sacrifice them, or you can just place them somewhere where their automatic conversion to the Soviet cause won't immediately hurt you.

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/24/2011 1:11:47 PM)
Thanks for the tips on Romania!

Baelfiin -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/24/2011 3:05:19 PM)
Also make sure you have no rumanian turncoats on the border of bulgaria or yugoslavia. If you do both of those countries will surrender and become no move zones for you. Not a major problem just a heads up.

gingerbread -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/24/2011 3:37:29 PM)
So simply disband the Rumanian units, then?

ComradeP -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/24/2011 3:44:58 PM)
That's entirely possible, but I consider it to be a bit too gamey against a human opponent, just like disbanding the Italian units.

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/25/2011 8:20:26 AM)
Turn 177. November 2 1944. The Red Army is at the gates of Rumania, but the mud is creating supply problems for them, as can be seen by the number of yellow bordered units. A Soviet armored thrust in the direction of Galati has been cut off. Meanwhile, unready German units are railed to Rumania for rest and recuperation in the beneficial climate, and to ensure continued stability in the region. [image]local://upfiles/37384/942844C4050B40BBBD1B70A6023B9330.jpg[/image]

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/25/2011 8:23:42 AM)
In the central sector, the Soviets have been held, but Vitebsk and Velikiye Luki have fallen. [image]local://upfiles/37384/BB69C23FBD5D4D65AFB8A4BD277305E7.jpg[/image]

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/25/2011 8:27:20 AM)
Turn 177 Production. The manpower pool is still increasing. [image]local://upfiles/37384/3BBD2DE5E2FE43ADBA25A1D392F6281A.jpg[/image]

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/25/2011 8:32:26 AM)
OOB and losses turn 177. [image]local://upfiles/37384/A00C285D112847638B1C2B3635C5FA53.jpg[/image]

ComradeP -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/25/2011 1:05:47 PM)
Keep in mind that the capture of any Romanian town below a certain line will do, so racing across those swamps or capturing the town at the top of the rail line north of Constanta can cause the Romanians to surrender. If the weather turns to snow next turn, those Soviet spearhead units might be in trouble.

Peltonx -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/26/2011 12:24:57 AM)
2 million Germans, lol paper thin. Wow I did not see the 14 million total Russian losses, thats got to be a record I would say for wite. Historical was about 12 million by the latest Russian records. Nice job. Only 48 turns left. Blizzard will be tough when the rivers freeze. One tactic you can do in the center and north is retreat 25 to 30 hexes, this will pull him far from rail heads and greatly shorten your lines. The mech units could be sent south to help load together the lines until spring. You could retreat 2 or 3 hexes per turn.

DTurtle -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/26/2011 1:23:41 AM)
How much of your manpower is in the active pool and how much in the transit pool?

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (1/2/2012 7:18:41 PM)
Turn 178. Nov 9 1944. Snow. Near the Rumanian border, an exploiting Soviet Mech corps meets its fate. Might this be the last time a Soviet unit will surrender? [image]local://upfiles/37384/30BA44F31B854D90B57A8DDD4096DF27.jpg[/image]

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (1/2/2012 7:50:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DTurtle How much of your manpower is in the active pool and how much in the transit pool? Turn 178 Manpower: All Pools: 187833 Active: 161718 Transit: 26115

Baelfiin -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (1/2/2012 9:59:00 PM)
Hang in there Tarhunnas You can hold the line in the mountains for a long time when you get there.

Flaviusx -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (1/2/2012 10:10:51 PM)
Tarhunnas, if you can keep Romania in the game until Christmas, my hat's off to you, that's no mean feat given the state of your forces. The Wehrmacht may be a wreck, but you're doing a great job running down the clock. Despite everything, you are still way ahead of schedule here. To put this in perspective: the Sovs ought to be pounding on Budapest by this point down south. Up north, you have even more slack, they ought to be on the Vistula at this point, right next to Warsaw. The Soviets are at least six months behind schedule and more than that up north.

DTurtle -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (1/2/2012 10:41:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas Turn 178 Manpower: All Pools: 187833 Active: 161718 Transit: 26115 Thanks. There goes my theory that maybe your manpower was increasing because of an accumulation of manpower in the transit pool. Hang in there.

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (1/3/2012 11:47:49 AM)
Turn 179. Nov 16 1944. Snow. The Volchov line is holding... [image]local://upfiles/37384/C4BDB1BFF50C4DFA95415DB9AE2D5F7E.jpg[/image]

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (1/3/2012 11:48:25 AM)
And the front in the South. [image]local://upfiles/37384/DB644AE4A5B94DD3A99BE041F16159C1.jpg[/image]

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