Riga Gambit (Full Version)

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neuromancer -> Riga Gambit (5/9/2011 11:05:04 PM)

Here's a real question, how do people do the 'Riga Gambit'?

I know the principle, capture Riga and the ports between it and Konigsberg with your mechanized forces and you can ship some infantry to Riga from Konigsberg. But it never works. I can never send any troops to Riga by sea until after I capture the port north of it on the little isthmus/ islands there, which by then is pointless as I have my rail built up to Riga by then anyway.

I'm running 1.03, is that something that was changed in 1.04?

On a similar token when I take Tallinn, I can send ONE security unit to Tallinn, but after that nothing makes it through until the captured Finnish port is freed. I can TRY to send something, but it gets stopped in the middle of the sea, and then at the start of the next turn is kicked out at another port (usually the port I have to capture before I can sail to Riga).

Is that supposed to happen? Or is it a random chance of a blockade?



fiva55 -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/9/2011 11:10:58 PM)

I assume you know how to capture Riga on turn one. Before you start moving AGN, bomb the ports of Kuressare first.
Once the ports are damaged, you will be able to ship in 2 divisions and a security division in on turn 1, provided you have captured Riga of course.

[image]local://upfiles/37788/343A74E5991D4216AC306B7BC201D437.jpg[/image]



neuromancer -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/9/2011 11:21:11 PM)

Ohhhh!!  Bomb the port to heck first!  D'uh!

Thanks!  Much appreciated.

[sm=sign0031.gif]
[:D]



PyleDriver -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 12:19:27 AM)

Hum, you guys amaze me. I never attack Riga turn one, I need my armor... Another post a guy talked about his PzD being worn down on turn 4, hell, there mission is to move and surround...Attrition is enough to deal with in 41, a city assult, please...



neuromancer -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 12:24:43 AM)

Riga isn't too bad turn one because of the surprise bonus.  You can do it on turn 1 with a couple divisions on the right side of the river with a hasty assault.  You really can only get another hex, maybe two beyond the river anyway, so you may as well take it out so you can get some supply through Riga's port.  Plus some infantry up there will help with the drive north (now that I know to hit the that bloody port!)

I generally don't find my armour that worn down until October, when I want to pull them off the line anyway. I find what helps for me is to know when to go for the hasty assault, and when to go for the deliberate attack (I'm getting pretty good at figuring that out).



Klydon -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 12:30:54 AM)

The trade off for attacking Riga on turn 1 is absolutely worth it when you consider you can ship the two infantry divisions in. Having infantry on the front on that side of the river in order to assist the panzers on turn 2 is not to be underestimated at all. This is in addition to the fact they don't get fatigued by a full turn of marching and are fresh on turn 2.

The other deal with securing Riga on turn 1 is just good pocket management. The Germans need to seize all the ports along the coast between Riga and the border in order to isolate the Russian units there and also to cause as much territory to flip to German control as possible. Not taking Riga on turn 1 means the Russians could potentially get a pocket or two back into supply unless the Germans are diligent about running a lot of motorized forces in the area to flip hexes, which is counter productive. The Germans want as much armor over the river as possible on turn 1 imo.

A lighting strike against Tallinn is also worthwhile if you are quick enough and the Russian does not fight for the city. I dumped 5 infantry divisions and a security division in there. They got to Narva the next turn and into the fight the turn after. (Well, it was a wave of 2 infantry divisions followed by 3 infantry divisions).



PyleDriver -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 12:31:35 AM)

On an additional note, you will have to send an ID to the islands, sucks but you have to do it. Normally it joins 18th army in time for the assault on Leningrad...



PyleDriver -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 12:41:56 AM)

Ok guys look at my AAR the fan effect of yor mobel units allow ALL your infantry to force march. Two divisions, please, three armies sound better. Get the bridgeheads over the Daugava...Leningrad my freinds is a must, Riga is crap...It falls no matter what.



Altaris -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 4:19:28 AM)

The real importance of Riga is as a supply point. Though not sure if it's still as valid now that Kuresare is harder to bomb into oblivion. Haven't tested it out since the new patches. But before with 1.03, you could get some good supply pulls in via Riga to start up Turn 2, which absolutely made it worth taking, that's a huge bonus in later turns up north.



heliodorus04 -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 5:48:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

On an additional note, you will have to send an ID to the islands, sucks but you have to do it. Normally it joins 18th army in time for the assault on Leningrad...

Why?
How do you do this?



Tarhunnas -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 8:24:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Altaris

The real importance of Riga is as a supply point. Though not sure if it's still as valid now that Kuresare is harder to bomb into oblivion. Haven't tested it out since the new patches. But before with 1.03, you could get some good supply pulls in via Riga to start up Turn 2, which absolutely made it worth taking, that's a huge bonus in later turns up north.


Oh it works fine in 1.04 allright. See my AAR The Wolf and the Bear for example. BTW I prefer to take Riga from the west side, across the river. The panzers will have the MPs for a deliberate assault if you manage it right.



PyleDriver -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 12:33:21 PM)

Helio theres ports on those islands in the Baltic. You have to secure them or it will a thorn in you side. They have land bridges, there just a pain buts it needs to be done....



heliodorus04 -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 1:34:29 PM)

Okay, I did know that eventually some poor unit has to walk over the island ports.  But the way the thread has been written, I'm wondering if I have to take that island in order to get supply into Riga.

Another question, this one concerning Kalinn:
Can the Soviet player effectively defend Kalinn by railing some reinforcements there?  Or should it just be conceded?



Klydon -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 7:00:09 PM)

I assume you mean defending Tallinn.

IMO, it can't really be effectively defended in the face of a determined German advance. The thing you want to avoid as a Russian is not making the Germans work to get it however. I think you want to put enough in there that a single division really can't take it, especially with a hasty attack. If you don't, the Germans can come in with a single mechanized division, take control and the next thing the Russians know, they have extra infantry divisions coming at them likely sooner than what would have been the case.

As long as you are in the port and are attacked, your units should route back safely to your lines, so its not like they would be surrounded and then lost.



timmyab -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 7:40:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Okay, I did know that eventually some poor unit has to walk over the island ports.  But the way the thread has been written, I'm wondering if I have to take that island in order to get supply into Riga.

It certainly helps, but by then Tallin should be in Axis hands anyway so it's not important for supply purposes.The job can often be done by a security division.
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Another question, this one concerning Kalinn:
Can the Soviet player effectively defend Kalinn by railing some reinforcements there?  Or should it just be conceded?

I try to defend it with at least a division as soon as an AGN mobile unit gets within striking range, which is usually turn 2 or 3.If they can sea transport infantry up there on turn 3 or 4 then there's a real risk that the Narva landbridge will be forced before it's had time to fortify.It's also a nasty shock for any Axis commander that tries a coup de main at Tallin with insufficient recon.




PyleDriver -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 7:53:56 PM)

Yep every city should be defended with something...Time and troops is what the Soviets have, the Germans dont...



Klydon -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 9:54:56 PM)

The Germans can be there on turn 2 pretty easy if they are doing the Riga gambit.

If the Germans had any type of good turn 1 at all, the Russians will have very little to checkerboard with or fight with in that area to slow the Germans down and their main concern should be slowing down the Germans/defending Pskov anyway.



Tarhunnas -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 10:18:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The Germans can be there on turn 2 pretty easy if they are doing the Riga gambit.

If the Germans had any type of good turn 1 at all, the Russians will have very little to checkerboard with or fight with in that area to slow the Germans down and their main concern should be slowing down the Germans/defending Pskov anyway.



There = Tallinn? Pskov??

As the Soviets, I like to rail some units north from the south front on turn 1. The Soviets have plenty of rail capacity on turn 1, and a few divisions at the Pskov line can make a lot of difference, while they will hardly be missed inthe south.



heliodorus04 -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 11:16:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The Germans can be there on turn 2 pretty easy if they are doing the Riga gambit.

If the Germans had any type of good turn 1 at all, the Russians will have very little to checkerboard with or fight with in that area to slow the Germans down and their main concern should be slowing down the Germans/defending Pskov anyway.



There = Tallinn? Pskov??

As the Soviets, I like to rail some units north from the south front on turn 1. The Soviets have plenty of rail capacity on turn 1, and a few divisions at the Pskov line can make a lot of difference, while they will hardly be missed inthe south.


Having seen great players take Pskov on Turn 3, I agree with you.



PyleDriver -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/10/2011 11:50:50 PM)

I don't get it, Riga falls on turn two no matter what, why have a gambit?



heliodorus04 -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/11/2011 12:26:17 AM)

No Riga Gambit.
Turn 1: 16th Army can get about 8 hexes, right? (or is it 18th on the ocean, forgive me).

Turn 2, your infantry divisions can basically get to Riga and that's about it.

With Riga Gambit.
Turn 1:
Panzer divisions take Riga.
2 Infantry divisions get transported by ship across sea INTO Riga.

Turn 2: Basically full supply to the infantry in Riga, so that they can go 8 or so hexes further than in the above scenario: It means getting a whole corps of infantry 1 turn closer to the panzer spearheads.

The same thing is basically true with Talinn if the German player takes it on T3 and ships in more divisions.

Suddenly you have a lot more pressure on Pskov (from Riga) or the north of Lake Peipus (Talinn) and you can bypass fortifications, and fatigue (because you spent 1 turn moving by sea, generating little to no fatigue).




Klydon -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/11/2011 12:31:25 AM)

What are you taking it with? Infantry barely has enough movement to get over the river on turn 2 and should be headed to Pskov, not trying to get through the swamp up by Riga. If you are trying to attack a city over a river, that could be some tough sledding and your infantry is going to likely be on the wrong side of the river at the end of the turn.

Most of the AAR's I have seen either have it falling turn 1 to the panzers or turn 3 to infantry.

In my earlier post, I was talking about Tallinn in response to someone asking if Tallinn should be garrisoned or not. My comment is the Russians had better consider it possible that the Germans can get to Tallinn on turn 2 and plan accordingly. The Germans can also get to Pskov and potentially take it on turn 2, especially if they have XXXIX from PG3 helping.



PyleDriver -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/11/2011 5:10:00 AM)

Turn two I smack it with a moble division and move forward. But its across the river and next to Riga and theres hardly any losses...



Tarhunnas -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/11/2011 5:58:39 AM)

Well, doing the Riga gambit or not, apparently it's a matter of taste and playing style, as it should be.



heliodorus04 -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/11/2011 6:19:03 AM)

Well, heck, I don't know of any tradeoffs (Leningrad very early) that exceed it in Turn 2 Net Present Value, so to speak. I'm probably ignorant: what ARE the alternatives?  I don't read many AARs, I guess, but after reading an early version of Q-balls, Riga 'gambit' was what I thought was standard policy for Axis Turn 1.  And the Romanian panzer drive in AGS as well.

WOuld love to be directed to some AARs that show alternatives, if anyone knows them off hand.



ComradeP -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/11/2011 10:03:30 AM)

I don't think Riga works as a supply source on turn 2 or any other turns until you capture Kuressare. Port ZOC also blocks supplies, and as the damage ports take from bombing missions has been significantly reduced a few patches ago (and slightly increased again in the latest) the odds of doing damage that the Soviets can't fix in their turn is pretty low, which means that the port will be undamaged in the next Axis logistics phase, which in turn means supply will be blocked (like naval movement).

Occupied ports don't have a port ZOC (it's in the manual I believe, but I missed it), so all the discuss we had about the need for Riga to stay damaged as its port ZOC would be 10 were kind of a waste of time. As long as the Soviets hold an undamaged Kuressare, nothing should be able to get to Riga from the Baltic.



Tarhunnas -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/11/2011 10:48:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I don't think Riga works as a supply source on turn 2 or any other turns until you capture Kuressare. Port ZOC also blocks supplies, and as the damage ports take from bombing missions has been significantly reduced a few patches ago (and slightly increased again in the latest) the odds of doing damage that the Soviets can't fix in their turn is pretty low, which means that the port will be undamaged in the next Axis logistics phase, which in turn means supply will be blocked (like naval movement).

Occupied ports don't have a port ZOC (it's in the manual I believe, but I missed it), so all the discuss we had about the need for Riga to stay damaged as its port ZOC would be 10 were kind of a waste of time. As long as the Soviets hold an undamaged Kuressare, nothing should be able to get to Riga from the Baltic.


Naval transport works for sure. Didn't check the Supply, I did have the impression I had good supply levels up there. I bombed Kuressare to 19% damage turn 1 with no problems IIRC.



Klydon -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/11/2011 1:51:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Turn two I smack it with a moble division and move forward. But its across the river and next to Riga and theres hardly any losses...


This is what most attacks on turn 1 do to Riga. Most will use 2 German divisions across the river, stacked up and make the attack on the same side of the river as Riga. This is one of the reasons that tactics have changed a bit for AGN when it comes to pocket formation. AGN instead must worry more about advancing as many troops as far forward as possible.

By attacking Riga on turn 2 with the mobile divisions, you probably sacrifice any shot you have of putting heavy pressure on Pskov on turn 2 with the units that make the attack.



Ketza -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/11/2011 2:19:14 PM)

Attach some pioneers to the high CV value Pz division in 4th Pz and cross the river and attack Riga from the east and you can take it with a one division hasty attack with 2-4 MP left over. I have never had this attack fail.



Klydon -> RE: Riga Gambit (5/11/2011 2:25:06 PM)

Yep, good catch on the attachments. I do that as well just to make sure. 



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