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vonRocko -> trees (5/17/2011 2:40:48 PM)

Even with trees turned on, I am seeing vast areas of woods and heavy forest with no trees. I even accidentally set up a halftrack in deep forest, and wasn't able to move it the whole game. Is the map supposed to be so abstract? I see the various shades of green, but with trees on, why don't trees fill in all the patches?
Also, is there an easier way to see the terrain under my cursor, without selecting a unit and using the line of sight band?
Thanks



junk2drive -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 2:46:16 PM)

Press the 5 key to toggle the terrain map. With trees on, pressing 0 once turns them off, press again is half trees, press again back to full trees.



vonRocko -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 2:58:48 PM)

Ok, thanks for the 5 key tip, I don't know how I missed it. As far as the trees go, I have the trees on max,as per the button, It puts a few trees where the forests are, but very few, most of the forest is still abstract. I can live with that, I'm just checking too see if it is supposed to be that way. I am going to have to learn how to post screenshots, pictures are worth a thousand words.
Thanks.



Mad Russian -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 3:00:03 PM)

Use the 5 key. That will show you the underlying terrain colors.

Trees are a creature all their own. They are the most versatile texture PCO has because of the wide variety of options for them.

Using the 5 key can show you where there may be different levels of densities set by the scenario designer.

Textures could look the same for different densities. Trees could look the same for different densities. The underlying terrain type may be different.

Normally, the edge of a forest is not as dense as the center. That's not always the case but you can do go with that as a general rule. So,  if you look at the underlying color base and it's the same for the entire stretch of forest you should be safe thinking that it's the same throughout.

Good Hunting.

MR



Mad Russian -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 3:02:16 PM)

Here you see the map displayed terrain in the top view and the terrain type display in the bottom view. You can get the terrain type display by selecting the 5 key.


[image]local://upfiles/28652/4B2017B4EF48425ABEF0DEA84D8564C0.jpg[/image]


I use the 5 key more than any other of the hotkeys when I play. It tells me more about the map.

Good Hunting.

MR



benpark -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 3:07:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Ok, thanks for the 5 key tip, I don't know how I missed it. As far as the trees go, I have the trees on max,as per the button, It puts a few trees where the forests are, but very few, most of the forest is still abstract. I can live with that, I'm just checking too see if it is supposed to be that way. I am going to have to learn how to post screenshots, pictures are worth a thousand words.
Thanks.



Which map is this on?



Mad Russian -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 3:11:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Ok, thanks for the 5 key tip, I don't know how I missed it. As far as the trees go, I have the trees on max,as per the button, It puts a few trees where the forests are, but very few, most of the forest is still abstract. I can live with that, I'm just checking too see if it is supposed to be that way. I am going to have to learn how to post screenshots, pictures are worth a thousand words.
Thanks.


Screen shots are taken in game with the F8 key. You can make as many in game screen shots as you like with the F8 key.

They are put in a folder named Screens which is created in your PCO directory when you take your first screen shot.

These will be stored as a bmp file. You need to convert that to a jpg file to post them here on the forums.

Good Hunting.

MR



Mobius -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 3:14:00 PM)

Halftracks and wheeled vehicles can't move in heavy woods.



[image]local://upfiles/21308/096850B35E534DA4997FF12EFBDE68B3.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 3:15:34 PM)

Hi VonRocko,

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko
Even with trees turned on, I am seeing vast areas of woods and heavy forest with no trees. I even accidentally set up a halftrack in deep forest, and wasn't able to move it the whole game. Is the map supposed to be so abstract? I see the various shades of green, but with trees on, why don't trees fill in all the patches?
Also, is there an easier way to see the terrain under my cursor, without selecting a unit and using the line of sight band?


Which scenario was this?

Regards,

- Erik




eniced73 -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 5:26:14 PM)

Is this not dependent on the map designer? MR, looking at your tutorial, I could make several 'heavy' woods underlying terrain spots but only place one tree in the middle of each section. If that is what I wanted to do. Or I could make a light section with so many trees that you would not be able to see the underlying terrain. I know you explained that above in your 'densities' statement but I wanted to just make sure this is what you were explaining.

vonRocko,
Be careful when playing and trying to conceal your units in these forest areas. Even though it may be 'LIGHT woods' There may be LOS into the woods directly to your unit. You get one base concealment factor for being in that type of terrain and then additional ones for each tree that is in between you and your enemy. Say there are no trees between you and your enemy - you get the same base modifier no matter if you are at the edge of the LIGHT forest or you are deep on the other side. Remember that the underlying terrain does not degrade LOS the structures (trees, buildings, etc) in between you and your enemy do. I had to reread the manual a couple times to get this.

Now the manual is not that clear on whether or not the terrain modifier and LOS blocking tree modifier is cumulative. It states that if your LOS is blocked by say 2 trees you would receive a (-4). The base terrain for LIGHTwoods is (-5) so you would receive the higher (-5). It does not state that you would get the LW (-5) modifier and in addition the two trees (-4) for a total of (-9). Can one of you guys confirm this?

I see that the Heavy Woods modifier is -15. So you would have to have more than 7 trees between you and your enemy to get a bigger modifier if that is even possible.



vonRocko -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 5:29:59 PM)

Ok thanks for all the info. The map I'm playing on is the first battle of the 1st panzer division random long campaign. I'm going to try a screenshot, but I think my problem is solved with the #5 terrain key.[;)]



Mad Russian -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 5:49:40 PM)

While issuing orders with the terrain feature option on, key 5, you can see what the terrain is when you move the orders band to a particular type of terrain.

So, you not only have a color coding, but the game tells you what kind of terrain you are pointing to.

Here is woods.

Good Hunting.

MR

[image]local://upfiles/28652/19A3CA8B51A3408389F179842F264FE4.jpg[/image]



Mad Russian -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 5:50:57 PM)

Here is wheat.

Good Hunting.

MR

[image]local://upfiles/28652/5D346693150F4A9E9CA3841734FB36C2.jpg[/image]



Mad Russian -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 5:54:29 PM)

Notice that the movement bands for legal moves are in blue.

But there are times when the movement band is gray. That means you can't give an order to move there. Here is an example of me trying to order a vehicle into a building.

That movement band is gray and the text reads impassable.

Good Hunting.

MR

[image]local://upfiles/28652/192A369B66D842C3B58DBA55B3367128.jpg[/image]



vonRocko -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 6:05:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

While issuing orders with the terrain feature option on, key 5, you can see what the terrain is when you move the orders band to a particular type of terrain.

So, you not only have a color coding, but the game tells you what kind of terrain you are pointing to.

Here is woods.

Good Hunting.

MR

[image]local://upfiles/28652/19A3CA8B51A3408389F179842F264FE4.jpg[/image]

Hi Mad Russian,
That screenshot is a good example of what I am trying to describe. Looking at the spot where the move line ends, It shows woods, but I see very little trees. This is what I mean by abstract. With the trees turned all the way on, can that space fill in with trees? Or do the trees just represent an area that my imagination fills in with trees? Is it graphic limitations with the game, that trees can't fill the whole area?
This is definitely not a complaint, I'm loving the game, just curiosity.
Thanks.



eniced73 -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 6:12:55 PM)

This might help a little bit. You cannot fill in the spaces. It is the way the map maker made the map. Your first question - Yes - fill in the spaces with small trees and bushes. Use your imagination. You second question is No this is not limited by the game just a choice by the map maker to probably save performance.



Page 45 in the manual

Terrain Obstacle and Target Terrain Check: Terrain plays a major role in every aspect of Panzer Command, including sighting. The basic rule with terrain is that everything between you and the enemy unit can affect sighting. In addition, whatever the enemy unit is actually sitting on or in will affect sighting to a certain minimum degree even if it was not directly in your sighting path.
To explain, whenever sighting is checked, two ”rays” are generated from the spotting unit to the enemy unit. One “ray” is low to the ground and the other is at approximately head or turret height. The sighting system then checks each ray and notes down every single obstacle that ray encounters between the spotting unit and the target. Every object that is touched by the path will degrade the spotting distance, depending on the terrain type (including buildings) and the amount of degrading terrain in number ”hits” it made on the ray. Modifiers for different terrain types are cumulative. If the low ray is completely blocked, then a target unit is considered “hull down” where applicable and shots at it may be deflected by the ground. The game computes an average of sorts between the results of the two rays to come up with a final estimation of your line of sight to the target.
The game then checks what the target is actually located on or in. For example, it’s possible that an infantry squad is in a section of woods but the sighting rays pass just through a gap in the modeled trees. The infantry unit will still gain a minimum degree of sighting obstruction just for being in the woods, even if the rays hit no trees on the way to it as it is assume that there are smaller trees, brush and shadows that still make sighting into such terrain more difficult and cover and concealment are assumed to be easier to find. This “minimum” rule only applies for the terrain



Mad Russian -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 6:13:50 PM)

Those trees are in exact map location. They are not abstracted.

What you see is what you get.

The trees with purple bases are BIG tress and cannot be knocked down in the game. Those without a purple base are smaller and could be knocked down by tanks.

Good Hunting.

MR



vonRocko -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 6:30:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Those trees are in exact map location. They are not abstracted.

What you see is what you get.

The trees with purple bases are BIG tress and cannot be knocked down in the game. Those without a purple base are smaller and could be knocked down by tanks.

Good Hunting.

MR



Alright, I'm starting to understand. But that's a pretty sparse woods. I have seen areas on the map marked heavy woods, with no more trees than what is shown in the above picture. If that's woods, then my back yard is a forest![:D]
Thanks.



Mobius -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 7:14:01 PM)

A tree model in a heavy woods area counts more against LOS as the same model tree in light woods. This reduces the load on the graphics rendering so the map need not be overloaded with tree objects.



eniced73 -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 8:06:38 PM)

I just went from understanding back to somewhat confused. So according to this chart If I am in heavy woods with 2 trees blocking me from my enemy, his total sighting modifier would be (15+15=-30). The chart starts at 40 so the sighting distance would drop to 10 which equals 70meters. He would have to move within 70 meters to spot me. In the same situation if I was sitting in a Light Woods area with 15 trees blocking me from my enemy the total modifier applied would only be (2x15=-30). This would also drop me to 10 and he would have to move within the same distance to spot me.

I understand the need to cut down on things that hamper performance but when you actually look at what the above would look like in the game it is pretty confusing and not very representative of what is going on.

Am I looking at this correctly or am I just confusing myself more than what I am?

Also why is the paved road, dirt road, clear, and plowed field not the same as far as sighting modifiers. Imagining someone standing on all four of these terrain types I dont really see how CLEAR can give a zero modifier and PLOWED FIELD can give a -5 modifier. Does clear represent knee high grass or small plants? If so, what does plowed field represent seeing it is the same as MARSH and BRUSH?



[image]local://upfiles/31896/399E25B2F3BA41DD834D5367D8D47817.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 8:26:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eniced73
I just went from understanding back to somewhat confused. So according to this chart If I am in heavy woods with 2 trees blocking me from my enemy, his total sighting modifier would be (15+15=-30). The chart starts at 40 so the sighting distance would drop to 10 which equals 70meters. He would have to move within 70 meters to spot me. In the same situation if I was sitting in a Light Woods area with 15 trees blocking me from my enemy the total modifier applied would only be (2x15=-30). This would also drop me to 10 and he would have to move within the same distance to spot me.


The goal was that designers would use fewer trees in Light Woods areas and use the tree models that were smaller and less dense, whereas on Heavy Woods, the more dense and larger tree models would be used and their density would be higher. It's possible that some map designers have moved away from these guidelines, which may be causing the confusion. The intention is absolutely that Heavy Woods should visually look more dense than Light Woods. The additional sighting penalty is intended to reflect more dense types of trees and other vegetation and cover. It's up to the map designer to determine which kind of woods he wants to use and then make the visual look match the game effect.

quote:


Also why is the paved road, dirt road, clear, and plowed field not the same as far as sighting modifiers. Imagining someone standing on all four of these terrain types I dont really see how CLEAR can give a zero modifier and PLOWED FIELD can give a -5 modifier. Does clear represent knee high grass or small plants? If so, what does plowed field represent seeing it is the same as MARSH and BRUSH?


Clear terrain is assumed to have more dips and bumps where part of a unit could be obscured, whereas a road is assumed to be flat and without cover. Plowed fields are assumed to have deep furrows that create mini-trenches of a sort.

Regards,

- Erik



Mobius -> RE: trees (5/17/2011 8:35:01 PM)

If your infantry was sitting in heavy wood (=-15) with two heavy woods trees blocking LOS (=-15-15) It would be 40-45 = -5. The minimum is 0 so sighting would be 27m. Thes size and spacing of the trees would probably be around that distance anyways. So something would have to get within that distance to see.

If your infantry starts to do anything then the factors go up and so does the range.

The reason for roads being higher than clear is that clear isn't considered flat and even like roads. There could be small mounds, grass, tree logs, pits, uneven ground and shrubbery that someone could lie behind in clear.



eniced73 -> RE: trees (5/18/2011 2:41:27 AM)

Eric / Mobius,
Thanks. I now see the light. Thanks for explaining that.



junk2drive -> RE: trees (5/18/2011 2:47:06 AM)

I'll add that in addition to sighting, the type of terrain effects movement. A designer could want just a few trees for LOS but tree terrain to effect movement.

Then throw in grass. It can be as high and wide as the designer wants and blocks LOS too. You can even do grass trees.



eniced73 -> RE: trees (5/18/2011 3:00:17 PM)

I noticed in MR's map tutorial that in his forrest areas he only place a couple actual trees. The rest we mass rendered in bunches. By the way the map looks good as do the forrest areas. My question is what is the actual difference in a placed and a rendered tree. Can both be run over by armored units? Or can only placed trees be destroyed? Do both have the same effects on LOS?



VictorCharlie -> RE: trees (5/20/2011 8:26:25 AM)

Is there a way to turn on and off the grass and objective flags same as trees?



JMass -> RE: trees (5/20/2011 9:36:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: victor charlie

Is there a way to turn on and off the grass and objective flags same as trees?



Hotkey "K" reveals the hotkeys list, "backpace" toggles grass and "8" toggles flags.



HintJ -> RE: trees (12/8/2011 3:04:52 PM)

Generally, I'm content to play the game w/out learning what exactly goes on in the LOS calculations. I've been reading the manual. It is interesting to have the info out in the open, but I'm confused about the "per hit" feature.

If a LOS ray hits a building, it gets a -10 to sighting factor. Does this mean that the LOS ray continues through the building? Shouldn't hitting a building stop the LOS completely past it? For example, a stationary, unbuttoned tank with a sighting factor of 40 (875 Meters) can look through a building to see another tank w/a reduced sighting factor of 30 (350 Meters). So if the two enemy tanks are less than 350 Meters apart, they can been seen though a building?! Thankfully, it doesn't seem to work this way in the game.

I thought if something solid (like a building) blocks LOS, whatever is behind the solid object is unseen. Now it looks like LOS can hit multiple objects, each causing a reduction to the sighting factor.






Mobius -> RE: trees (12/8/2011 3:47:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HintJ
If a LOS ray hits a building, it gets a -10 to sighting factor. Does this mean that the LOS ray continues through the building? Shouldn't hitting a building stop the LOS completely past it? For example, a stationary, unbuttoned tank with a sighting factor of 40 (875 Meters) can look through a building to see another tank w/a reduced sighting factor of 30 (350 Meters). So if the two enemy tanks are less than 350 Meters apart, they can been seen though a building?! Thankfully, it doesn't seem to work this way in the game.
That is for the first wall of the building. If there are two hits then it blocks LOS absolutely. So you can spot things inside buildings (like troops) but not beyond because the building will have a back wall.

I don't know this for sure but it seems like there is only one hit per meter. This may have changed but it did seem this way for a long time.



HintJ -> RE: trees (12/8/2011 4:51:18 PM)

Interesting. I also like the non-linear (and editable) sighting table.



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