RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (Full Version)

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desicat -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/20/2012 11:08:59 PM)

Maybe Nemo will chime in and provide a few tips.



Crackaces -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/20/2012 11:18:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

I mean, are they supposed to give an advantage in ability to get through defenses, accuracy, or damage inflicted? And if none of these, what's the point of using them?


I think historically it was to give an exp level '1' pilot a chance of doing some damage not to give a exp '70' pilot superhuman powers ..If you have exp level 70 pilots it is probably better to just do the regular attack thing ..

I saw some some small group raids with Helens .. I understand Nemo set loose 100's all at once at vulnerable targets .. the CR says for example:

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Niigata at 115,55

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 20



Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 11 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 2 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
DD Cassin Young
DD Wedderburn, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
DD Wickes
DD Young
DD Yarnall



Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-43-IIIa Oscar flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Just a thought ...



Nemo121 -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/20/2012 11:19:44 PM)

No, not after I was left hung out to dry by the forum when Krupp posted.

Posting any advice about kamis in this thread would obviously relate to this game and I've said I wouldn't do that ---- plus why make myself a target when I KNOW most people here won't actually pipe up if I'm attacked for answering their questions. If I thought they'd stand up I'd be more willing to post but making myself a helpless target in order to help people who don't lift a finger in response --- No thanks.

I've been PM'ed re: advice on kamis today and have responded by directing those who contacted me via PM to my previous AARs. There's more than enough information there for people to draw the correct conclusions.



desicat -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/20/2012 11:35:25 PM)

Nemo, I can understand your standing on principle and can't argue with that - ever.

I thought that tips on the effective use of Kamikazes would be a tactical lesson that everyone could learn from and watch play out. When put in those terms I didn't really think it would be considered by anyone to your giving strategic advice.



Nemo121 -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/20/2012 11:42:05 PM)

desicat,

To paraphrase Shakespeare; To those who wish to make an issue even a puff of breeze is proof of a hurricane. No, once bitten, twice shy.



krupp_88mm -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/20/2012 11:46:10 PM)

[image]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/sjonathan02/mutley2.gif[/image]



Crackaces -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 1:19:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

[image]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/sjonathan02/mutley2.gif[/image]



?????? [&:] ??????

I am not sure of your point except that I need a pro-version of photobucket to understand your point of view ...



krupp_88mm -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 2:13:23 AM)

quote:


pro version.....


[image]http://iambrony.jsmart.web.id/gif/files/efdrgtbrnht5fgd.gif[/image]



jeffk3510 -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 3:32:05 AM)

Ive always got your back Nemo. Especially from fakes like Krupp



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 5:39:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

No, not after I was left hung out to dry by the forum when Krupp posted.

Posting any advice about kamis in this thread would obviously relate to this game and I've said I wouldn't do that ---- plus why make myself a target when I KNOW most people here won't actually pipe up if I'm attacked for answering their questions. If I thought they'd stand up I'd be more willing to post but making myself a helpless target in order to help people who don't lift a finger in response --- No thanks.

I've been PM'ed re: advice on kamis today and have responded by directing those who contacted me via PM to my previous AARs. There's more than enough information there for people to draw the correct conclusions.


Hi Nemo,

Sorry if you feel I didn't stick up for you. I just don't want to get involved in personal issues unrelated to WITP, and don't want to "stir to pot". And I thought the "flame" post you are refering to really couldn't be taken seriously anyway. But I definitely understand your position if you don't want to give advice to either side.



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 5:40:52 AM)

[:D][:D] I've got to know what the heck is this my little pony stuff? [:D][:D]



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 5:41:59 AM)

No turn tonight, Greyjoy and I are both really drunk and going to bed...



Itdepends -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 7:41:29 AM)

Boy you could read that the wrong way - sleeping with the enemy and all that.



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 11:47:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

Boy you could read that the wrong way - sleeping with the enemy and all that.

That came up to my mind also instantly.



Chickenboy -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 12:16:53 PM)

@ Rader,

I would expect improved efficacy of your kamikaze attackers were they escorted. None of the small-ish raids that you showed had escorted attackers. I would expect that Helen IIa kamikazes encountering appreciable CAP would get shredded and have their attack dulled, just as a 'regular' unescorted flight of Helens would be kneecapped. I'd expected somewhat better results from your Oscar IIa attack, as they are speedier and presumably more able to avoid CAP, but the sample size here is hard to make heads or tails out of.

Kamikazes are going to be a numbers game. You're going to lose a bunch of 'em. Thousands, like IRL. Every so often-say 10-20% of the time-one will hit and cause some pain. Although I don't have the personal PBEM Kamikaze experience behind me (yet), I would venture that large commitments (say 1000 in a turn) of trained and escorted kamikazes that are capable of breaking through a fatigued Allied CAP are likely to engender more success for you.

In your example, I count a total of 70 Kamikaze losses (mixed frames) to all losses. How many of these broke through CAP? You certainly can't fault the kamikaze mission for bombers getting chewed up by CAP, can you?

Still, with all the issues associated with these attacks, you've scored 3 hits. That's 4.3%.

I would venture this percentage can be improved to the better by incrementally improving your kamikaze approaches or methods. Good luck! We're rooting on you to fend off the Allied dogs!



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 2:52:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

@ Rader,

I would expect improved efficacy of your kamikaze attackers were they escorted. None of the small-ish raids that you showed had escorted attackers. I would expect that Helen IIa kamikazes encountering appreciable CAP would get shredded and have their attack dulled, just as a 'regular' unescorted flight of Helens would be kneecapped. I'd expected somewhat better results from your Oscar IIa attack, as they are speedier and presumably more able to avoid CAP, but the sample size here is hard to make heads or tails out of.

Kamikazes are going to be a numbers game. You're going to lose a bunch of 'em. Thousands, like IRL. Every so often-say 10-20% of the time-one will hit and cause some pain. Although I don't have the personal PBEM Kamikaze experience behind me (yet), I would venture that large commitments (say 1000 in a turn) of trained and escorted kamikazes that are capable of breaking through a fatigued Allied CAP are likely to engender more success for you.

In your example, I count a total of 70 Kamikaze losses (mixed frames) to all losses. How many of these broke through CAP? You certainly can't fault the kamikaze mission for bombers getting chewed up by CAP, can you?

Still, with all the issues associated with these attacks, you've scored 3 hits. That's 4.3%.

I would venture this percentage can be improved to the better by incrementally improving your kamikaze approaches or methods. Good luck! We're rooting on you to fend off the Allied dogs!


Maybe, but the problem is that if I escort them, I lose valuable fighter pilots too. Escorts just can't compete in any sense against CAP. This is the main reason my air losses are so high in this game. Give eqaul skill and aircraft, escorts vs. CAP suffer hugely disproportionate losses - at least 2:1 and I would guess more like 3:1. As someone once said, they are nothing more than ablative armor. [8|]



FatR -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 4:50:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

I mean, are they supposed to give an advantage in ability to get through defenses, accuracy, or damage inflicted? And if none of these, what's the point of using them?


My testing suggests that kamikaze give a greater accuracy (by this I mean =/= 0) to untrained pilots fresh from reserve, but actually do significantly reduced damage compared to just putting the same bomb weight into the target by normal means, so that you need at least 2, and better 3 Val hits to put a DE or an old DD anywhere near critical condition. I cannot vouch 100% that this wasn't changed somehow by beta tweaks since then.



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 5:00:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR


quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

I mean, are they supposed to give an advantage in ability to get through defenses, accuracy, or damage inflicted? And if none of these, what's the point of using them?


My testing suggests that kamikaze give a greater accuracy (by this I mean =/= 0) to untrained pilots fresh from reserve, but actually do significantly reduced damage compared to just putting the same bomb weight into the target by normal means, so that you need at least 2, and better 3 Val hits to put a DE or an old DD anywhere near critical condition. I cannot vouch 100% that this wasn't changed somehow by beta tweaks since then.


Darn, so they really don't seem very useful. I mean, it only takes a month or so to train a pilot up to around 60 NavB skill (maybe 1.5 months), where they have a decent chance of hitting. Maybe the reason they seem useless is that training pilots to be "average" (~60 skill) dosen't take very long.

Read Nemo's AAR in detail and I think part of the difference is not that he's getting/expecting better hit rates, but that he is using planes with very large bombloads as kamikazes. I imagine a strat bomber kamikaze could do quite a number on a ship, while a biplane would just be swept off the deck.,,

EDIT: I guess the training groups could be used as kamikazes because their old biplanes aren't much good for normal naval attacks, but it also seems to me like a better use for these groups is just to increase the training rate of conventional pilots.



Crackaces -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 5:04:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR


quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

I mean, are they supposed to give an advantage in ability to get through defenses, accuracy, or damage inflicted? And if none of these, what's the point of using them?


My testing suggests that kamikaze give a greater accuracy (by this I mean =/= 0) to untrained pilots fresh from reserve, but actually do significantly reduced damage compared to just putting the same bomb weight into the target by normal means, so that you need at least 2, and better 3 Val hits to put a DE or an old DD anywhere near critical condition. I cannot vouch 100% that this wasn't changed somehow by beta tweaks since then.


The biggest change I perceive is in how CAP works. The changes Rader suggested after the LB's were wreaking havoc in central Japan also mean that CAP is more effective overall and reduced numbers penatrating to make a hit.

It was my understanding that at Oki the IJ used 2:1 and 3:1 escorts on their Kami's meaning a lot more pentrated the CAP. The raids shown here were small and given the new CAP algorithums not very many made it through . but those that did and hit someething did damage ...



Chickenboy -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 5:57:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rader
I mean, it only takes a month or so to train a pilot up to around 60 NavB skill (maybe 1.5 months), where they have a decent chance of hitting. Maybe the reason they seem useless is that training pilots to be "average" (~60 skill) dosen't take very long.


Hmmm...

rader, did you train your kamikazes on NavB or LowNav? My understanding is that Kamikazes attack using LowNav / Kamikaze training / skills, not NavB. You may not have been as trained as you suspect...



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 6:16:19 PM)

I trained LowN...

Hmm, signature not working...



JohnDillworth -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 6:25:59 PM)

quote:

But how would they break though the 6 or so Iowa class BBs guarding his invasions and shore bombarding me every turn?


Well he only gets 4 Iowa's I don't have the game open but I don't know if all of those are on line yet. Count up his modern fast BB's. Can't speak to his deployments but those BB's have multiple responsibility. I think your night fighting is better than his radar. As long as he has no PT's about I think it is a 50/50 shot. Of course your guys might not come back so it's only worth it if you hit something juicy, then it's a knife fight. What else are you going to do do with them? my 2 cents



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 6:37:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

But how would they break though the 6 or so Iowa class BBs guarding his invasions and shore bombarding me every turn?


Well he only gets 4 Iowa's I don't have the game open but I don't know if all of those are on line yet. Count up his modern fast BB's. Can't speak to his deployments but those BB's have multiple responsibility. I think your night fighting is better than his radar. As long as he has no PT's about I think it is a 50/50 shot. Of course your guys might not come back so it's only worth it if you hit something juicy, then it's a knife fight. What else are you going to do do with them? my 2 cents


But if I try to interfere, I will get sunk by his a/c anyway before I get there. Sure I will use them if he tries to invade somewhere outside his air umbrela of course. You're right. They aren't much use after the surrender documents have been signed...

Anyone know how t link a photo for a signature?

EDITL: Uh oh, too big... will have to shrink it...



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 6:47:26 PM)

testing...



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 6:51:16 PM)

testing... EDIT: I shrank it a lot, but it's still coming out huge [:@]

EIDT: Not great resolution, but it'll do for now.



bigred -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 7:38:43 PM)

Hi Radar.  what with the Space colony photo[8D], you and your classmates going to the moon?



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 7:47:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

Hi Radar.  what with the Space colony photo[8D], you and your classmates going to the moon?


Hopefully we all are... Mars is better but Earth dosen't look so impressive from there [;)]



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 10:47:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

But how would they break though the 6 or so Iowa class BBs guarding his invasions and shore bombarding me every turn?


Well he only gets 4 Iowa's I don't have the game open but I don't know if all of those are on line yet. Count up his modern fast BB's. Can't speak to his deployments but those BB's have multiple responsibility. I think your night fighting is better than his radar. As long as he has no PT's about I think it is a 50/50 shot. Of course your guys might not come back so it's only worth it if you hit something juicy, then it's a knife fight. What else are you going to do do with them? my 2 cents


I basically mean any US BB with 16" guns... iowa class, SoDak, Wash, Mass, etc.

Go Massachusetts [:D] Only BB I've been on.

EDIT: Unless you count Mikasa, but that's a cruiser sized pre-dreadnought...



rader -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 11:09:27 PM)

Quiet turns these days. I think we're both licking our wounds after that last major series of air battles.

I'm not sure what GJ is up to... he has his invasion fleet in Hakkodate under 3,200 fighters. His bombers are all there too.

All is quiet as out ~6000 AV each in Hachinohe and Akita (the two clear hexes in northern Honshu) make faces at each other. He keeps bombarding. I wonder if he's going to send more troops, continue attacking, or what?

He's bombarding them with all his BBs and CAs every turn, inflicting mild attrition. I get the sense that something isn't quite historical about being able to bombard every second day but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it is reasonable given the proximity of his port. Did the allies historically use their BBs to bombard each day or two, or did they only do it sparingly? And if they didn't do it every possible opportunity, why not? Chance of wearing out the gun barrels? I'm just curious, not complaining, but I am wondering what the historical drawback to using a ship to shell a coast day after day was (if any?). You only really hear about shore bombardment accompanying invasions.

He has 71 land units (250,000 troops) in Hakkodate along with his fleet. I am watching these guys closely. If he wants to invade somewhere down the coast, we'll at least have some warning when he loads up the troops.

I've given up trying to contest the air in northern Honshu. I just can't compete with 3200 fighters near his base. If I send in strikes, they come in dribs and drabs and get chewed up before they can do anything. I've got to save my naval air force and remaining navy in case he wants to come down the coast. If he keeps sending troops up north, it is going to be up to the army to stop them. But any landing south of those 4 bases in the north (or a move towards the Bonins/Ryukus/other) will be fiercely contested with KB, LBA, and remaining surface forces.

I have a feeling that I'll be able to hold out for about another year until around September 1945 when the ETO forces arrive. After that there won't be much that can stop the Allied jugernaut. And with the ahistorically fast pace of operations possible in AE, it might not last long past that point. I'm hoping to hold out at least until xmas 1945... in fact, that's my goal for both games (see Taming the Bear).



JohnDillworth -> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) (1/21/2012 11:39:44 PM)

quote:

Unless you count Mikasa, but that's a cruiser sized pre-dreadnought

Been on the Mass also. I've had the pleasure of seeing the New Jersey at sea, well at river. Operation Sail, sometime in the early 80's I think she went up the Hudson. I was surprised how low to the water she looked. Very business like. Most of the other ships were newer. A BB is a BB and nothing looks like a big gun ship.
Do you still have the Musahsi, Nagato & Mutsu? Those have equal guns



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