German defense in 1944 (Full Version)

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morvael -> German defense in 1944 (5/23/2011 6:12:09 AM)

There is a ton of threads about turn 1 as the Germans, there is a dozen of threads about 1941 as the Germans, there are numerous threads about surviving the first winter as the Germans, some brave souls even venture as far as 1942... but I have yet to see a thread about strategy for the Axis in 1944 campaign. Yes, there is one about Soviet strategy in 1944, in which someone made a funny mistake of thinking it's the Axis player trying to get to Minsk (as usual), not the Soviet player.

I have been playing the 1944 campaign, because I wanted to play a defensive game (and as yet, I can't bear playing Soviets, not that I dislike them or like the Axis more - simply because they have to many units to handle per turn!). Besides finding out that several things are broken with the 1944 scenario, my experience is that trying to build a solid defensive line (which works in winter of 1941/1942) is no longer a way to stop the Soviets, perhaps only for a turn or two if they have to advance after your retreat and have to capture terrain. Then, even level 4 forts will not help. Still, the Germans have a high number of good panzer divisions, so I was thinking if something along the lines of Manstein's "backhand blow" is possible? Unfortunately in WitE there is no Warsaw Uprising that would stop the front with the shortest path to Berlin for half a year, so some other methods have to be developed. Maybe good mobility of the panzers could be used to punish the advancing Soviets a little? Unfortunately I feel there is no way those panzer divisions could be used to counterattack, the Soviets are so strong everywhere... so I just put them on reserve behind an infantry wall and hope they will push all Soviet assaults down to 1:1 odds so I can hold the forts. But they break in two or three places and you have to retreat again.

So, anyone played this campaign and cares to share secrets of mobile defense?



Sabre21 -> RE: German defense in 1944 (5/23/2011 2:06:53 PM)

Well unfortunately 44 was the lowest priority test wise of all the scenarios. 41 was #1 as were many of the shorter games. 43 is being reworked by Jyri, but with only a few testers left (another one recently quit) and summer fast approaching, getting much testing done is going to be very limited. My own time gets cut to but a few hours a day before long and I have more time to spare than any of the others.

All I can say is what works for me in the blizzard might work in 44. In 44 though you have to be very aware of where the arty divisions and mech/tank corps are located. Air recon is going to be crucial in this. From my experience, anything short of a linear defense in depth just doesn't work well. Due to lack of numbers you might not be able to accomplish this, but having the frontline manned with divisions and then 2 hexes back have a second line spaced apart about 2 to 3 hexes between divisions and then a couple hexes back a fort line spaced a few hexes apart. Use the panzers in corps strength on that 3rd line located near where you think the major threats are.

A picture is worth a thousand words as they say, so in the ss below you can see the German frontline with a secondary line also manned by divisions. I don't like to use regiments since they are too weak to conduct an effective counterattack. You also see some panzers near the front as local reserves and then others placed further back in cities on railheads to be used as strategic reserves. So if a breakthru occurs, I can concentrate several divisions locally and if necessary bring in more panzers from my sr. In 44, don't be afraid of backing up a hex or 2 at the right moment when you see multiple arty divisions mass, they can be dangerous.


[image]local://upfiles/3042/2E0C008DE70E4C79AC4F436CE1BE9E9B.jpg[/image]



governato -> RE: German defense in 1944 (5/24/2011 6:54:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Besides finding out that several things are broken with the 1944 scenario, my experience is that trying to build a solid defensive line (which works in winter of 1941/1942) is no longer a way to stop the Soviets, perhaps only for a turn or two if they have to advance after your retreat and have to capture terrain.


What did you find that is broken in the '44 scenario? I had designed a TOAW (COAW) scenario starting with Operation Bagration and I was curious to play it with WitE...I agree, it is surprising that nobody seems excited to take Berlin.



morvael -> RE: German defense in 1944 (5/24/2011 10:08:55 AM)

Sabre21: thanks for the advice, but I can't see how understrength German divisions (5-6k men each) can hold the Russians. The Soviets are stronger than in 1942 and have many artillery divisions. They attack with 2000+ tanks and 2000+ guns and that results with divisions retreating and taking 1-2k casualties and becoming unready. 2 division stack in the front is a minimum, in fort 3 or 4 they at least require some preparation for deliberate attack before they are pushed back. But there is simply not enough divisions to man the whole front (even withdrawing to the borders of East Prussia), in some places (Lvov salient, Rumania) you even have to use panzer divisions as frontline defenders - so there's no chance for a second line of infantry either. What I was trying to think of was to have some kind of mobile defense that would use panzer mobility to it's advantage as this kind of static defense results in forfeiting panzer division mobility completely, which I think is not a good idea (you rob yourself of your units one advantage and give initiative to the Soviets). Red Army has to be careful and just push the Germans back, because every breakthrough and raid behind German lines (I even lost an army commander to that) usually results in proper response from the panzers and the loss of a tank corps or two. Not that it really matters for the Soviet strength, but it's good for Axis morale :) So I was thinking along the lines how to encourage such mobility of the front, so there would be less digging and more maneuvering which could offer a chance for destroying a corps or two more often than with static defenses.

governato: I reported my findings here and here. Nothing major and with .22 it kind of settled itself down, even though the developer thinks the problem is still there. And the second one is easy to avoid with careful movement in Romania and evacuation in proper time. Overall I'm having great fun with this scenario, though I would be happy to have a chance for an attack from time to time. I guess there would be players who would enjoy taking Berlin, but there are no players who wish to lose it :)

Of course playing a human player would be much tougher, than playing the AI on normal. I don't see how the Germans would stand a chance to last till '45... The AI started Bagration campaign with abandoning operation Bagration :)



Mynok -> RE: German defense in 1944 (5/24/2011 2:24:31 PM)


I'm in '44 after taking over a '43 GC. If the Soviets bring enough they knock anything the Germans put in the front line, no matter what the forts are. Two units are definitely the minimum for the front line, but this is utterly impossible everwhere.




morvael -> RE: German defense in 1944 (5/25/2011 1:41:36 PM)

Looks like one has to be passive. Some nice attacks with panzers are possible, that could yield several corps surrender, but you have to group many panzer divisions in one place, leaving half of the front without reserves and then the Soviets crush that line easily and what you gain is not enough to give them pause. Looks like passive defense with giving as little ground as slowly as possible is the only way to go.



Flaviusx -> RE: German defense in 1944 (5/25/2011 1:57:23 PM)

I don't really think there is anything the German player can do in 1944 if the Soviet player has a clue, or even a pulse. The situation is more or less irretrievable as the scenario is presently constituted.

1943 is the much more interesting scenario from a playing standpoint. The German can still do things defensively. In the 1944 scenario, the German is just a chewy toy for a rabid Soviet pit bull.




Mynok -> RE: German defense in 1944 (5/25/2011 5:14:27 PM)


I'm not even really chewy anymore. Crunchy on the outside and empty in the middle. [:'(]

I've still popped some of his mech/tank corps that have scooted through holes he's made. Even routed a couple the other turn. Five others show up to take their turn at the toy baiting.



Ketza -> RE: German defense in 1944 (5/25/2011 9:07:16 PM)

Surely battalions of Jagpanthers and Jagtigers backed up by throngs of old guys with Panzerfausts will be able to form brigades and stop the reds in thier tracks!

Thats my plan anyway.

[sm=00000036.gif]



Mynok -> RE: German defense in 1944 (5/25/2011 10:00:10 PM)


Maybe if there were battalions of them, yes. You just don't get many of those Jagd's and they're mostly in SUs.



Peltonx -> RE: German defense in 1944 (5/26/2011 12:51:59 AM)

Hmm why are there blizzard effects during the 1944 winter? Thats not really even semi historical. The winter of 44 was very mild. Unlike the winter of 41-42 which was the coldest in 100+ yrs.

The German army was on the offensive vs the west during December and January.

Even the winter of 42-43 the German army was rdy for the effects, yes the army was not doing offensive operations during that winter, but it was not like they didn't know it was coming.

I thk they figured that out after 41.

Pelton



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