RE: Pre-Kursk (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> RE: Pre-Kursk (7/18/2011 3:15:53 PM)

Probably the decisive factor there was the 600 Luftwaffe planes, including 349 Bombers! (and 87 Stukas as someone pointed out). That's a whole Luftflotte basically.

I had 200 aircraft, but only 70-ish bombers. I mentioned before, I lost IL-2 factories at Moscow, and decided to move the ones at Voronezh, temporarily ending IL-2 production. Per-turn production is above 80 now and climbing, so I should be able to put more bombers out quickly. But 1942, I will be short on bombers.

I have plenty of fighters, more than I could ever use I think.

RE: LONG TERM, I plan to continue attacking a bit in Summer, but not a ton. Just to position myself for winter, where I need to leap-over a couple major rivers. In 1943, I mostly intend to attack straight out of the Kursk bulge, west and northwest, toward Chernigov and Bryansk. This will lengthen the line, and force a major strategic pull back of AGC from Moscow.



Canoerebel -> RE: Pre-Kursk (7/18/2011 3:33:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I was/am a WITP-AE player....



[8|]



Q-Ball -> RE: Pre-Kursk (7/20/2011 2:53:47 AM)

8/6/42:

VACATION: STAVKA HQ is going on vacation to a remote Dacha on Cape Cod. As a result, no turns until the end of July. AAR will be quiet until then.

Use the time to debate what to do next....

Finnish Offensive:

This is still bearing fruit, in terms of killing Finns. This turn, we pushed back a Finnish Division twice; the last hasty attack reduced it's strength below 4,000. That's pretty bad. The Finns really need a break.

Others have suggested you need to pull the Finns in 1942 after Winter, and get them back to Finland for a spell. I think that's about right. We are going to keep pushing though.

Meat Grinder:

A couple attacks around Bryansk met with large losses, and big counterattacks. We both lost alot of guys. I will halt for now, though I may try again, just to piles up bodies on both sides, and grind the Germans a bit.

Quiet everywhere else. I am up to 6.8 mil Russians, Germans at 3.02 mil. The Red Army grows large....

[image]local://upfiles/6931/ACE7D90BFC97448FAA9B82686B7BE807.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Pre-Kursk (7/20/2011 2:58:52 AM)

Interesting. He's got the Hungarians on the line holding the nose of the Kursk bulge.



Fishbed -> RE: Pre-Kursk (7/20/2011 9:55:16 AM)

Flavius is right, are these Hungarians so tough that they can actually prevent your corps from driving to the Pripet like a knife through butter? Strange.

Me thinks that a crisis somewhere else on the front in 1943 (like, around Moscow) could actually give you the edge once you decide to push through the nose of the bulge. You need reinforced flanks, but you'll be endangering his who line by extending this bulge as long as you don't get fragile on the sides. Do that before Panthers and other later generation panzers start to flow in...



Scook_99 -> RE: Pre-Kursk (7/20/2011 1:41:02 PM)

If my opponent is tricksy (say, someone like Tarhunnas), I would suspect those Hungarians are bait in a trap. Just saying. And no, I haven't looked in his thread. I play paranoid, and assume all opponents are deviant thinkers, not desperate players.



Klydon -> RE: Pre-Kursk (7/20/2011 1:45:18 PM)

From a strategic sense, it is actually a fairly good move to put the Hungarians there. Any advance/attack the Russians can launch there will take place along a narrow avenue of advance, making it harder to gang up multiple stacks of Russians against the defenders. On top of that, it is harder to reenforce success there because of the narrow avenue and on top of this, The Russians will have to drop troops off to defend the flanks of the attack, weakening his advance further. On top of all this, IF the Germans have a good reserve, they can more easily show up to counter attack and perhaps bag some Russians while they are at it. A lot of this is just wargaming 101.

Should the Hungarians (or any other Axis minor) be along a flank and the Russians attack, it is far easier for the Russians to hammer them and continue to advance in strength because they don't have to drop as much off to defend the advance. In addition, it makes it harder for the Germans to counter attack.



Baelfiin -> RE: Pre-Kursk (7/20/2011 2:08:31 PM)

The Hungarians can put up a fight and hold 3 or 4 hexes of the line, they don't roll over like their south-eastern neighbor



Monter_Trismegistos -> RE: Pre-Kursk (7/28/2011 5:42:31 PM)

Great AAR. I just finished reading yours, and I'm starting to read Tarhunnas one. Funny things could be found in early posts. For example, after turn 5 (post #41) Pelton wrote:
quote:


I dont see why you have so much armor in the center? You can get to the river with allot less armor and there is nothing in the center other then Moscow, which if hes smart you never destory any of the production units.

Seems that you are not smart :)



Encircled -> RE: Pre-Kursk (7/28/2011 6:40:27 PM)

With recon, you will be able to tell if its a trap or not.

I'd be piling through there regardless anyway, as its a good a place as any to fight the Axis



Peltonx -> RE: Pre-Kursk (7/28/2011 7:28:32 PM)

The Meat-Grinder. As long as your getting 1 to 3 odds you should keep pushing. If the odds are under 3-1 your winning, if its over 3 to 1 your lossing.

It will take you 5 to 10 turns to push him out of his forts, once hes out of forts then the odds will drop under 1-2.

Dont sandbag it. Use the 1v1 to 2v1 rule to your advantage. You should be able by Dec 42 to attack atleast 20 - 30hexes a turn and get retreats. Your production was hardly dented so 1 to 3 in losses you can take np. If you lose a million men in 6 or 8 turns he will lose 330,000 and he will never beable to recover. At that pt your losses will drop to 1 to 2ish.

He will be able to counter attack for a while, but you can grind down the tanks also.

DO NOT try for any breakthroughs at all, simply plow ahead 20 to 30 attacks per turn 1v1 = 2v1 attacks a turn for 20 turns and its over game set and match he be under 16k rifle squads by April 43. He recover some during mud, but you break him withen 5 turns.

As long as the German player can't cut off your units and destroy them there is nothing he can do.

If the German player is unable to have a summer offensive during 42. The games over the Red army will be strong and large by Dec 42. I know this from exp. There seems to be zero middle ground with this game.

Pelton




Q-Ball -> RE: Pre-Kursk (8/1/2011 2:27:26 AM)

9/3/42: Clear

STAVKA HQ is back from an extended vacation. I was able to send Tarhunnas a turn or two over vacation, or "holiday" as you Europeans say, but mostly we were swimming or at the beach. But I'm back now, rested and refreshed, full of shellfish and ready to resume the march on Berlin.

In general, though, we are hitting brick walls. The Red Army just isn't up yet to a general offensive. In the meantime, we are trying to take on what attacks we can.

Building the Red Army:

I have built very few Rifle Corps; the TOE before October 1942 isn't very good, and I'd rather wait until they are more robust.

I have built and stored alot of Sappers. I stopped building Tank Bns, because I need to conserve vehicles, and I want to save SU slots for Heavy Tanks and Assault Guns when they are available.

I started building 3 Mech Corps this turn, and will probably go 1 a turn up to about 10 or so. I don't really have the Vehicles until 1943, but I want to train these units up at the same time.

Hope this is the way to go, that's what I am doing with the Red Army. I am up to 7.1 mil men and counting.

Finns:

I predicted this offensive would end as soon as the Germans show-up in force, and that's about what has happened.

Looking at the map, a key hex is 89-13; the rail junction 2 hexes east of the Volkhov. Without it, I can't advance very far into Karelia, because I would have no rail service very far into it.

I think I have accomplished my objectives, but I have to be careful how far I stick my nose out; this is 1942, not 1944, and the Germans still have bite.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/5EE011BAD2C24A719D3A66C8A0D1EA9B.jpg[/image]



Scook_99 -> RE: Pre-Kursk (8/1/2011 3:43:34 AM)

I like your philosophy, or your strategy for the upcoming years regarding your units. I would probably still try to convert one infantry corps a turn, even before October they are rather strong and can be used in emergencies. You can use Finland as a training ground in 1943 for your units with low experience, that will be fun!

I don't know if you have got to play with mechanized corps before, but to put it into football terms: your tanks corps are like linebackers, can blitz through and smack something in front of them, but can be pushed around if motionless. Mechanized corps are like linemen who get a running start, they will destroy anything that is in front of them, and good luck pushing them around. I also like to attach a sapper regiment, artillery regiment, and a tank regiment, as if they are not beefy enough.

Good luck on the upcoming winter offensive, preparation for the next summer!



Q-Ball -> Summer 1942 (8/1/2011 7:12:07 PM)

9/10/42: Clear

We have upped the tempo of attacks; I wouldn't call this an "offensive", but we are putting together attacks all along the front, against weak spots. This turn, we launched 20 attacks total; some failed, and the ones that failed had horrific losses on our side, but overall we were about 2.5 to 1 in losses in favor of the Germans.

Tarhunnas is starting to withdraw in certain places to straighten the line; he abandoned 6 hexes this turn, first such moves in awhile.

The main purpose of these attacks is to just get an early start on bleeding the Wehrmacht, and also position ourselves for a winter offensive.

North:

The Finnish offensive has pretty much halted; we can't make much more progress. We will try a couple more attacks, but I am starting to dig, to prevent a counterattack on the bulge I created.

I am happy with the results of this offensive though

Center:

North of Moscow, we made some progress toward Torzhok, capturing 3 hexes, and slowly pushing him back.

Around Bryansk, we are pushing him back on that river (the Desna?) running south of Bryansk. I hope to cross it in force over the winter.

In the SOUTH, we have pushed the Germans back across the Dnepr, save for Z-Town. Getting accross the Dnepr will be a major objective come Winter, since that will be the last clean chance I get before the winter of 43-44.

OOB: We are hovering around 7.1 mil, as our losses have been very high. His OOB is now dropping slightly.

I wonder if I have too many Rifle Divisions. I have lost only 2 Rifle Divs since September of 1941, so I have a ton of infantry. I hate to start disbanding perfectly good Infantry units, but I will need well over 8 mil to fill them all out, and that's before creating anything else.

After creating 12 Mech Bdes in preparation for Mech Corps, my VEHICLE pool is now at 101% of supply requirements; just over. I anticipated this happening, so I need to take it easy on creating Mech and Tank units, until the Lend Lease bump in 1943 should put me back in the black.



Klydon -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/1/2011 7:23:56 PM)

I would not worry about disbanding rifle units at this point because once you start forming up rifle corps, your number of units will drop and rifle divisions will still be needed to cover more quiet sectors of the front. 



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/2/2011 1:23:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I would not worry about disbanding rifle units at this point because once you start forming up rifle corps, your number of units will drop and rifle divisions will still be needed to cover more quiet sectors of the front. 


I would put some of those "leftover" rifle divisions into static mode, freeing up AP's and vehicles (which you might need this winter badly). Lowering their TOE's to 60% would also free up equipment and manpower, without incurring in significant AP expenses.



Flaviusx -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/2/2011 1:28:51 AM)

You can't have too many rifle corps, Q-ball!

(Unlike, say, tank or mech corps.)




Q-Ball -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/6/2011 2:53:46 PM)

10/1/42: Clear

I haven't posted in a few days; partly game slow-down, partly not tons to report.

We are making some attacks here and there, mostly to get a head-start on bleeding the Wehrmacht. I am also trying to position my forces for the Winter Offensives. I say that as plural, because I have a couple plans.

The Northern Offensive against the Finns really helped in terms of pulling 12-15 German Divisions into the North Woods, including a Panzer Corps. This should help in my other offensive objectives, once the Snow starts to fall.

MOSCOW:

The first attacks in November will be directed toward the re-capture of Moscow. For this, I am building several Artillery Divisions, and Guards Rifle Corps. We are transferring 3rd Shock and 1st Tank to the flanks around Moscow, as well as other reinforcements.

I realize Moscow isn't that important, and the terrain isn't ideal. But honor demands it's recapture, and at any rate, it's a bulge in the line.

I am attacking here first, mostly a) to draw in reinforcements, and b) because the Moscow area doesn't have many rivers that need freezing.

CENTER:

Concurrent with Moscow, we are also attacking WEST out of the nose of the bulge, against the Hungarians.

We have already pushed them back a couple hexes, and crossed the north-south river there already. This will become a problem as I push West, and draw more troops off from other areas.

This area already has 2 Shock Armies, so we are simply going to give them some Tank Corps, and leave it at that.

SOUTH:

The big push will be here, with my #1 Objective this Winter: Getting Accross the Dnepr. This is more important than anything, because if I don't, it will be an impenetrable barrier for all of 1943. We are not starting anything here, though, until the 2nd week of December, when the Dnepr is frozen-solid. The point of those earlier attacks is to attract attention, and allow me to spring the main event when conditions are right.

I am slowly pushing toward Poltava during the summer, and I already am within a couple hexes. This opens the possibility of crossing West of D-Town with a push SOUTH.

I plan a push directly over against the "Nose" of the bend.

The biggest push, though, will be by Konev's Crimean Front over the southern Dnepr, pushing Northwest. Most of these positions are held by Romanians, though Germans are sprinkled in, and I see a strong line of forts immediately accross the river.

If I devote enough resources, I should be able to get over the River in force, and set-up a good summer campaign into Ukriane.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/1EFDE0D4D4B2411ABABE59DCF465E295.jpg[/image]



Balou -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/6/2011 4:38:49 PM)

Can you post an image of the D-town/Dnepr area? Would appreciate more details before the big show starts down "under". Thanks.



Q-Ball -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/8/2011 12:34:16 AM)

10/15/42: MUD

Attached is a shot of the Dnepr bend. Not much going on otherwise, as it's MUD; no attacks at all.

The Red Army is still climbing in strength; up to 7.3 mil.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/D879A9C2A04646C58C3D2D27D943837E.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/8/2011 5:14:07 AM)

I think an offensive to cross the Dnepr once it freezes over is the correct strategy. Once past there, he's got no real defensible terrain until you hit the Carpathians, practically.

And this will unlock the rest of the map. He can't hold an extended front north of the Pripyet when the Soviet is pressing on Poland and Romania. Moscow will be yours almost by default. Leningrad will be a tougher nut to crack, but you may want to simply bypass that altogether and dare him to hold it while you advance towards Belorussia and the Baltic republics.



glvaca -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/8/2011 2:42:04 PM)

Just read the complete AAR and what a great read!

A couple of interesting points, with complete benifit of hindsight [;)], is that from ready to give up in 1941 you actually turned it around completely during the winter. What an awesome counter offensive! And what an absolute blunder to grind his panzer corps into the ground and failing to prepare for winter!

Also very interesting is that I read the complete AAR from your opponent of his match against gibs first and it is clear he has actually follwed the very same strategy in both games, with very different outcomes!

So IMHO, the balance of the game should not be questioned. With the new patches allowing the German the chance to get through the winter much better in forts etc... the German stands a good chance to ride it out IF he prepares. Which is exactly what he didn't do. Secondly, you did what a Soviet player needs to do, preserve your army at the expense of territory.

I think what this game proves is that if and when:
1. The German player pushes for territory extreeemly agressively
2. Without regard for losses
3. And not able to kill enough Russians in the process
4. And is unprepared for the Russian winter offensive
5. That is well prepared as you have done.
6. And then tries to fight it out instead of retreating.

He's going to get what he deserves! A good beating! And that is exactly as it should be. The German player cannot afford to mistreat his Pz divs the way he did, these guys need to be threated with respect. Grinding them into the ground against a Soviet player who knows his business is suicide!
It's actually a replay of history, exept that the Russians have lost far less in terms of their army as historical.
Really happy to see how the game has evolved. The first winter rules in the game turned me off big time, now I think it's time to start a pbem game!



Q-Ball -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/9/2011 3:53:54 AM)

Thanks for the compliment, though I think the Germans still need some help. Tarhunnas made some mistakes and overextended himself, and so deserved to be reduced somewhat in 1942 in terms of what he could accomplish. But to be completely out of it is probably extreme.

I hated to just build elaborate defenses in depth and force him to make multiple attacks to move forward, but that's absolutely the best strategy.

11/5/42: MUD

Nothing going on on the map, other than moving units to the front. A good time, though, to update the numbers, and also strategy of what I am building.

Building the Red Army: I built 14 Artillery Divisions as soon as I could. I have built some Guards Rifle Corps, but I am hoarding APs to have close to 500 when January 1943 hits, I can convert a bunch cheaper. I might just form 50 Corps then.

I stopped building TANK units, but will start again as soon as I have more vehicles. I have piles of tanks in the pool, and will eventually assign tank units all over the place. I "only" have 9,100 tanks on the map; we can push that number higher.

In terms of PRODUCTION, my Armament levels are fine. I am producing about 110,000 Manpower per turn; higher than before, due to repair of Manpower I captured during the Blizzard.

Leaders: Screenshot below on leaders; I haven't posted much before, let me know what you think.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/6ECA76EC7FEC4669BCA68C6A7A63696A.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/9/2011 4:18:11 AM)

You start with 370 APs so he knocked off 62. 



Q-Ball -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/11/2011 4:07:29 PM)

11/12/42: Snow

The Soviet Winter Offensive has begun. Of course, the Red Army has no supply limitations at all, so we are attacking virtually everywhere along the front, save for the Dnepr River line; I am accumulating units back there, hopefully in secret, and waiting for the River to freeze. Total reinforcements are 5 Guards Rifle Corps, 4 Artillery Divisions, and a Tank Army.

We attacked 45 times, 32 successfully. Most attacks had little tactical subtlety; if it failed, we moved some guys back for fresh units and tried again. Most of the time, #2 succeeded. We pushed back 1 hex in several spots, but no breakthroughs; always a 2nd line of units.

We really ground down the Wehrmacht though; check the losses. I don't see Tarhunnas or anyone really surviving this kind of onslaught long term.

Is it like this because I suffered so little in 1942, bringing 7.6 mil Russians to the party at this point? (That is my OOB) Or is this typical for 1943.




[image]local://upfiles/6931/FA6DA16FA7254FEFB5903277E7500FC2.jpg[/image]



76mm -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/11/2011 4:19:07 PM)

Q-ball, I see that you are also facing a heavily fortified line with stacks of divisions--are you attacking those 50-80 CV defensive stacks with your relatively puny divisional stacks, or only with corps stacks? The initial odds have scared me off attacking divisions. Also, to what extent have you beefed up your armies and rifle corps with sappers?



Q-Ball -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/11/2011 4:56:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Q-ball, I see that you are also facing a heavily fortified line with stacks of divisions--are you attacking those 50-80 CV defensive stacks with your relatively puny divisional stacks, or only with corps stacks? The initial odds have scared me off attacking divisions. Also, to what extent have you beefed up your armies and rifle corps with sappers?


I didn't attack those big stacks. That was the result of pushing back units on top of other units.

I am using some CORPS, but I am hoarding APs instead to go on a Corps-building frenzy when 1943 starts (and the cost drops to 10 AP). I plan to have nearly 500 APs by the calendar turn, and build 40+ Corps.

Every Rifle Corps has at least 1 Sapper. Most have a Tank Unit too. I am filling STAVKA with 50 more Sappers to stock-up for 1943, and plan to add Tank and SU Regts when I start getting more Lead Lease Vehicles. At the moment, I have 165 Sapper Regts, and climbing. On-Map, I have 9000 AFVs, and hope to push that above 12K

I built 14 Artillery Divisions, and I built a Heavy Rocket Bde to check it out. It's only a Brigade, but has alot of Rockets, and looks promising.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/12/2011 3:07:13 AM)

Do you have any Guards Armies?  A few more months and it's Breakthrough Artillery Division time.  Could be fun  [:D]



Q-Ball -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/16/2011 6:45:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Do you have any Guards Armies?  A few more months and it's Breakthrough Artillery Division time.  Could be fun  [:D]


I have 5 Guards Armies. Guards Armies though just add 5 to morale for non-guards units, that's it. So ironically, Guards Armies tend to be less capable, as they are filled with Regulars. Seems counterintuitive, but there it is.

Snow Turns: 11/19 and 11/26/42:

The game has slowed down a bit due to Tarhunnas's RL time, but we are slogging along, literally and figuratively.

The last 2 turns have been unexciting from a MAP standpoint; we are mostly picking on stacks here and there and pushing them back. No breakthroughs; generally, it's taking all my front-line strength to push the stacks, and they retreat to defensible positions one-hex back. Tarhunnas has forts in depth, which makes exploitation attacks pretty much impossible.

MOSCOW:

We are pushing here and there. NORTH of town, Kalinin front is approaching Khimki, and we have pushed back two hexes. CENTRAL MOSCOW was abandoned, and re-captured by the RED ARMY; the other two hexes are now the Fascist front-line. I am confident we'll have it cleared by the end of winter.

SOUTH of Moscow, there is a very strong defense line, but we are pushing south of it, toward the NW. KALUGA fell, and we are still advancing one hex at a time. Tarhunnas has also withdrawn back a hex after I cracked a couple lines, which is limiting my attacks.

CENTER:

Between BRYANSK, and into the KURSK bulge, we are hitting heavy resistance.

Near Bryansk, we have pushed the fascists back on the river, but are now halted, waiting for it to freeze.

In the BULGE, we have moved 1-2 hexes WEST, but now pretty much halted against a Panzer Corps.

SOUTH:

2-hex advance around POLTAVA; we are flaking the town from both directions. It will probably take the winter to take it.

Further south, a line of 5 Romanian Divisions hold the mouth of the Dnepr near Nikolev. I have amassed 4 Artillery Divisions, 5 Guards Rifle Corps, and I have a Tank Army on the way. I am trying to be sneaky (Shhhhh!), and will hit it when the river freezes. No sign of massive reinforcements yet. This attack figures to be the main winter event; the rest is just diversion and grinding the Wehrmacht.

LOSSES:
So far, losses are trending about 2-1 to 2.5-1 in favor of the Germans; but this is to my favor overall. The Germans fell below 3 mil in strength last turn, I am now at 7.6 mil. I can replace my losses, he can't.

I think Tarhunnas's defense is good, I don't think any player can withstand this kind of assualt long-term. It's a numbers game. I don't think I am doing anything special at all, other than I am protecting my flanks, so he doesn't really have opportunities to encircle my forces. But as for the attack, I'm just lining up units until I think I have enough, and press the "Attack" button. Pretty simple. But effective enough I guess.

My manpower losses are acceptable. I am losing piles and piles of tanks, almost 1000 a turn at the moment, but I am OK there. Most of my losses are T-60s and T-70s, and I have a fair number of tanks in the pool. Most of the Lend Lease tanks are just accumulating in the pool, so they are a fall-back in case my losses are really out of hand. But I don't worry about it. In fact, I would like to get more tanks on the board, because they are a great firepower multiplier, if you don't have unlimited manpower. So far in the game, I have lost 34,500 AFVs.

Vehicles right now are a problem. I am almost 40K short now, and I have stopped creating any mobile units. Starting January, I should be able to close the gap, but I probably can't build more Mech Corps or Tank Regts until March or April, when I begin to accumulate surplus again.

I am still creating Sapper Units, and I have hordes of them. I love Sappers!



wpurdom -> RE: Summer 1942 (8/16/2011 9:22:58 PM)

With the adjustment in Soviet manpower-based reinforcements, I assume that 2.5 to 1 becomes more questionable in 1943. Of course when the artillery divisions kick in, I assume it will be harder for Tarhunnas to maintain those rations.



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