Alternate 1941 Strategy? (Full Version)

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Aolain327 -> Alternate 1941 Strategy? (6/1/2011 4:15:40 AM)

Hi guys:

Just wondering, was it Von Bock who argued that once it was clear that Russia would not be knocked out in 1941 the Germans should withdraw to defensable positions to wait out the winter?

My question, has anyone tried this? In other words, once snow hits, anyone had the Germans high-tail it back to "easily defensable" terrain?

Wondering how this would play out.



saygame -> RE: Alternate 1941 Strategy? (6/1/2011 5:03:20 AM)

I am doin just that in an AI game to test my hypothesis of what if Hitler relented and allowed a total withdrawl in light of the enormous logistics issues created by winter. I can't bear to see all that manpower just eaten by the winter so units are so depleted when German manpower is so limited. Even at a revised beta average loss of 4% a week during blizzard, the drawdown would still reach an average strength of 60% if a unit started at full TOE and was exposed full time. So far the AI seems stumped but is advancing as I started withdrawing in Mud. So far so good and the withdrawl is in good order. But I'm only on turn one of the blizzard and not everyone is back in Poland/Rumania yet. Finnish Leningrad and the Crimea I've decided to hold and button down the hatches as I believe they would done and to give the Germans deep jump off points and multiple threats for the Soviet to defend against in the Spring. While the historical aspect may seem preposterous given Hitler's personality, I think it might have been a historically viable alternative given the complete lack of winter equipment had cooler heads prevailed. Did not know any German Field Marshal had theorized it back then. That seems intriguing.

Will '42 and Russian tactical and equipment development doom a second German offensive come May. Dunno. Maybe a revitalized Soviet army with Corps developed doctrine will prevail. Maybe the Germans will find ways at retained full strength to overcome that. Will report back.

saygame



carnifex -> RE: Alternate 1941 Strategy? (6/1/2011 4:02:04 PM)

Historically speaking, if any WW2 leader or staff ordered a complete withdrawal after advancing hundreds of miles and losing hundreds of thousands of men for no other reason than worry that it might be a really really cold winter, several things would happen:

1) The Fins would immediately negotiate a separate peace.
2) The Rumanians, Hungarians, and the Slovaks would turn neutral.
3) Italy would withdraw all her troops.
4) The Soviets would be able to activate a large Polish contingent in early 42.
5) The Soviets would grab as much Japanese territory as they could using their now-not-needed-in-the-west Siberian troops.
5) And finally, the leaders responsible for the withdrawal would be murdered by their troops or subordinates, leading to...

6) Armistice.







Farfarer61 -> RE: Alternate 1941 Strategy? (6/1/2011 4:37:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex

Historically speaking, if any WW2 leader or staff ordered a complete withdrawal after advancing hundreds of miles and losing hundreds of thousands of men for no other reason than worry that it might be a really really cold winter, several things would happen:

1) The Fins would immediately negotiate a separate peace.
2) The Rumanians, Hungarians, and the Slovaks would turn neutral.
3) Italy would withdraw all her troops.
4) The Soviets would be able to activate a large Polish contingent in early 42.
5) The Soviets would grab as much Japanese territory as they could using their now-not-needed-in-the-west Siberian troops.
5) And finally, the leaders responsible for the withdrawal would be murdered by their troops or subordinates, leading to...

6) Armistice.

So a million less Wehrmacht soldiers are casualties, Europe is at Peace, and the Soviets attack Imperial Japan right after Pearl Harbour? Sweet!







HvB -> RE: Alternate 1941 Strategy? (6/1/2011 6:48:33 PM)

Have a look at my experiment:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2791947



Aussiematto -> RE: Alternate 1941 Strategy? (6/2/2011 12:45:50 PM)

I think people worry unnecessarily about the attrition caused by the blizzard. It's a fact of life -- you are going to lose men. I for one would not want to try and retake a whole lot of ground in 1942 from the west. imagine the line a soviet player would build on the Dnepr (eg)  -- basically impenetrable. You have to, put it bluntly, trade casualties for space. Every hex you make the Sovs fight over is a victory. Remember the Sovs lose a lot of personnel as well in attacking.

IMO, the trick is to do the job right with leaders (since this influences attrition), forts, and some forward planning. Small example: don't burn the Rumanian Mountain troops in summer. Give them a nice holiday in the cities and preserve them for winter. As winter approaches, tweak the support unit assignment so they get 6 or 7 of everything as you pull out a couple of other rumanian corps. Rail them forward, unfatigued, clad in their nice warm mountain kit and tell them to fight for their lives. Space them one apart stacked with German units and use them in a strategic location - say, anchoring the end of the line to the Sea of Azov, or as the front defenders of a city (eg out in front of the city). Attach them to a German army with an excellent commander. You might save 4-5 turns this way.  Similarly, the german mountain units need to be refitted to max and probably used as regiments, preferably in the same corps. Attach the Hungarian mountaineers to the same corps. Another good defensive team. Position them in a place where there are no cities, perhaps. Or, use the 2 mtn divisions as counter-attackers.

Pain in the arse to plan all of this but that's the game... you have to be overall leader, chief of staff, fearless panzer commander and the bloody planning clerk as well :)



sillyflower -> RE: Alternate 1941 Strategy? (6/2/2011 6:56:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aolain327

Hi guys:

Just wondering, was it Von Bock who argued that once it was clear that Russia would not be knocked out in 1941 the Germans should withdraw to defensable positions to wait out the winter?

My question, has anyone tried this? In other words, once snow hits, anyone had the Germans high-tail it back to "easily defensable" terrain?

Wondering how this would play out.


1 of my german opponents did just that and I followed all the way back to line approx from Riga all the way south. In the summer I have just continued westwards and should be on german soil in before Oct 42



Ridgeway -> RE: Alternate 1941 Strategy? (6/2/2011 9:25:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aolain327

Hi guys:

Just wondering, was it Von Bock who argued that once it was clear that Russia would not be knocked out in 1941 the Germans should withdraw to defensable positions to wait out the winter?

My question, has anyone tried this? In other words, once snow hits, anyone had the Germans high-tail it back to "easily defensable" terrain?

Wondering how this would play out.


1 of my german opponents sis just that and I followed all the way back to line approx from Riga all the way south. In the summer I have just continued westwards and should be on german soil in before Oct 42


You should declare victory [;)]



sillyflower -> RE: Alternate 1941 Strategy? (6/5/2011 1:39:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway


You should declare victory [;)]


Nah. Too much fun kicking the man whilst he is down, and anyway he claims he's still winning.



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