Nato symbols only are a no-go for WWII games (Full Version)

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Chris10 -> Nato symbols only are a no-go for WWII games (6/7/2011 10:38:56 PM)

I read about WITE about a year ago and was really looking forward for this game. I did not checked back on this title until now as I thought it to be a good idea to wait for some patches after release to flatten out the biggest issues (those who play Paradox Hearts of Iron and other grand strategy games know why...LOL)
Anyway, today I thought to have a look on this game and read thru the forum and watched some youtube videos to see if its the great title I was expecting and I have to say:
Its a real pity but there is no way Iam going to bother with a WWII game wich uses only NATO symbols. Those who played the original Panzer General will remember how immersive it was despite the fact that its mechanics where a lot more simple but players got seriously attached to their units as you could see grow their experinece (the gold stars) and the Player was not stearing on some metaforical NATO symbols who dont provide any atmosphere at all. With todays graphics it would have been megaeasy to make some nice individual sprites for each unit and unti type (main unit) and for each individual country and implement one more zoom level to be able to appreciate them and to give the impression of some closer control.
The devs should really re-install the first Panzer General and play a few turns to be remembered how much more immersive it is to have unit sprites instead of those dry nato symbols (besides...there was no Nato in WWII as far as I remember so it feels totally off to have to play with them)...

Just a shame... [&:]


[image]local://upfiles/38624/FE7BF19704354BDFA178ED1A29CE68C3.jpg[/image]



henri51 -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 10:41:06 PM)

This game, sir, is no Panzer General...[;)]

Henri



Omat -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 10:50:18 PM)

Hello

Maybe this game is more interesting for you:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=907

Omat



Templer_12 -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 10:53:58 PM)

No it is not Panzer General, but I mean it would be a very nice mod!
If the mod would be good - I could imagine some of us would give up the chip's.



Klydon -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 10:54:00 PM)

Check some of the mod packs like this one:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2718880

I will take what you call crappy graphics/nato symbols with good game play/AI over a glitzy/flashy game with no guts every day of the week and twice on Sunday.




Tarhunnas -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 11:08:32 PM)

Yeah, thats such a shame, NATO symbols will totally ruin any game. Another way the game is broken, that I had never even thought about!



neuromancer -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 11:10:49 PM)

I never play with sprites if I have a choice.  I like counters with NATO symbols.  Besides, I think it can sometimes be very difficult to tell units apart if all you have is this tiny little group of guys or a tank.

WitE counters communicate a great deal of information very efficiently; unit type in the middle, counter colour for what force/ nation, background colour for which army, and a couple numbers for attack and defense or attack and MP (my default except when I'm on the defense), and a coloured corner for something like supply (my default) or fuel / morale / experience.

That's a lot of info at a glance, I've never seen a sprite image of a tiny tank be nearly as informative.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Yeah, thats such a shame, NATO symbols will totally ruin any game. Another way the game is broken, that I had never even thought about!


You sir, are a smart ass.
I approve! Keep it up. [:D]

You trying to make up for PDH not being around lately?



Empire101 -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 11:17:08 PM)

You are comparing WitE to Panzer General??????

You are comparing a grand strategy simulation to the wargame equivalent of Super Mario????

You are comparing proper military ways of depicting units to pretty pictures????

Oh dear.....



cookie monster -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 11:17:08 PM)

Nice post. Of course I cant be bothered with a game which doesnt fit my perfect criteria either (sarcasm).

Should be in 3D as well, with full screen and windowed mode available, everything should be moddable.

Also if I don't like a game core design concept, I will demand that it's changed or have a Developer explain it to me.

After all "The customer is always right"!

LOL[:D]

(sarcasm off)



Lieste -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 11:18:44 PM)

Actually, I opened this thread, assuming that the poster was requesting the 'more appropriate' OKH predecessors to the NATO symbology - I also loath 'little men 'n tanks', and will always select symbolic icons (NATO/APP6b/OKH) if they are available... 



Chris10 -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 11:27:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat

Hello

Maybe this game is more interesting for you:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=907

Omat

hey Omat...thnx for the link ! Yes,Panzer Corps looks very PG like [:D]...it just lacks the epic map-size of WITE and the deeper mechanics which is what I was waiting for since PG release back in 94 and now that a game like that is released it only comes with boring board-game chips...thats frustrating !

I understand that there are some who prefer the nato chips but as a gaming oldtimer I really doubt that they appeal to a wider public (just a minority use them in HoI III).
For me they are a reason to skip the game entirely as this is a question of immersion or no immersion.




Lieste -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 11:29:38 PM)

Did you follow the link given to authentic WW2 OKH symbols? Ok - so NATO/APP6b is a bit anachronistic, but so are little pictures of men on a Staff/Planning map.



Chris10 -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 11:44:09 PM)

reading one or the other qualified comment I have the impression that maybe I did not make myself clear...my bad...
I try again: This is not about comparing PG mechanics/size with WITE mechanics/size but about immersion and atmosphere and there PG is lightyears ahead of WITE as it lacks WWII feeling with the symbol-artwork...its just to dry for a wider public and will seriously have an impact on the amount of sold copys...is a simple as that

Nevermind, I will get over it !
It was just my 2 cents



JAMiAM -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 11:49:55 PM)

Eye candy is nice, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For me, in a wargame, form follows function, and NATO counters win - hands down - in terms of functionality. That said, I can't help but be a little disappointed that there aren't gratuitous shots of 'Miranda Lawson's' rear end in this game. Maybe in WitE II?

[image]local://upfiles/10882/EFA9C6F7E78044B7939619423136B4EC.jpg[/image]



Lieste -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/7/2011 11:54:09 PM)

WW2 feeling - the link in post 5 has it in spades... your original image IMO doesn't. It looks like badly rendered 'cute' tanks in a 1980/1990 game.



neuromancer -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 12:04:48 AM)

JAMiAM - LOL! Nice!  She even has hexagons on her butt!


I think every game should have something like that.

"Congratulations, you have taken Moscow, as a reward; a gratuitous butt shot!"

(a pleasing male or female form may be selected per personal preference)

[:D]



Chris10 -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 12:11:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste

WW2 feeling - the link in post 5 has it in spades... your original image IMO doesn't. It looks like badly rendered 'cute' tanks in a 1980/1990 game.

on a closer look with enough knowledge one will recognize the accurate original german and soviet units in the screen...
obvioulsy you havent been around playing games 17 years ago or you would know its an original Panzer General screen and there where no better rendering around back then but today there is.
PG is the father of all hexfield wargames and until today unrivaled in its immersion and simplicity yet deep gameplay. If only todays devs would look back sometimes to preserve the good mechanics and approaches and add great new stuff instead of doin all different at any price, games would be a lot better today then they actually are.

I agree that the chips provide great deal of info but nice sprites with pop-up boxes would do that too, besides: the info in WITE is displayed in the sidebar-box too, so this is a moot point, same goes for the argument of having multiple units on one hex...sprites can get invisible depending on the sitation/location and show only the main one or convert into chips showing ever only the sprite of the selected unit, a change from sprite to chip depending on the zoom level is another way...etc, etc...there are many ways of handling this



neuromancer -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 12:18:12 AM)

Seriously though, a game like this has very little chance of a 'wider audience'.  Partially because these games aren't "pretty enough", partially because they aren't RTS, but mostly because there is a BIG learning curve, and most people don't want to deal with it.

Which is fine, no one says they have to.  But I think its the learning curve of games like WitE that is more of a problem than whether its pretty enough.  Scale is sometimes a problem as well.  WitP was just too big for me, I couldn't deal with the sheer size of the campaign game, but some happily embraced it (more power to them).

Matrix sells these games to a niche market, and knows it is a niche market.  And the games cost more because of it.  We as members of said niche market accept that reality.  And new people come into that niche market periodically, I got into these kind of games in my early 30s after I was introduced to them.

Trying to reach out to new customers that aren't that interested in the first place while alienating the existing customer base is bad business.

They could have an option for both, but the question of whether it is worth the expense of time and effort for the small number of people that are interested is one the devs would have to consider.  Probably better off modding that sort of thing yourself as the creators of the Kommandeur edition did for the historical WW2 symbols.




Chris10 -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 12:35:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

Seriously though, a game like this has very little chance of a 'wider audience'. Partially because these games aren't "pretty enough", partially because they aren't RTS, but mostly because there is a BIG learning curve, and most people don't want to deal with it.

I disagree..by adding just more appealing 2D artwork and just simplifying a few mechanics (or optional automating like in Distant Words) a far bigger client base can be obtainded without kicking away the existing ones

quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
Which is fine, no one says they have to. But I think its the learning curve of games like WitE that is more of a problem than whether its pretty enough. Scale is sometimes a problem as well. WitP was just too big for me, I couldn't deal with the sheer size of the campaign game, but some happily embraced it (more power to them).

The learnig curve of Hearts of Iron II or III or other Paradox Grand Strategy Titles is very steep too but their titles sell on a wider range as they are not to "dry" or "theoretical"... HoI III features sprites and NATO symbols optional and additionally a swap-over depending on the zoom level...

I did not bother with WITP cause I dont play a game to hit end turn and then have no influence in what units do...I wanna be in charge, plan my move and control the actual units...size doesnt bother people to much, neither game length but it bothers people if they dont have direct control and if there is no connection (immersive-factor)...the clumsy CIV II graphic did not disturbed nobody as it was all about "only one more turn" but with symbols instead of crappy unit sprites CIV II would have failed miserably.

Iam not talking out of my ass here or rant cause I have nothing better to do...
I played thousands and thousands of games in the past 30 years...from the NES, Commodore C64 PC and Atari over SuperNintendo, SegaMegaDrive , Jaguar etc ec...then Playstation and Playstation 2, from early 386 PCs up to modern PCs...Its for something when I say this NATO symbols ONLY thingi seriously will bug a lot of potential players/customers in the long run...

quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
They could have an option for both, but the question of whether it is worth the expense of time and effort for the small number of people that are interested is one the devs would have to consider. Probably better off modding that sort of thing yourself as the creators of the Kommandeur edition did for the historical WW2 symbols.

As stated before...when obtaining a wider client base this is a moot point.
And NO...modding this is not good enough as there are changes in the engine requiered to do it the right way... (one more zoom level, sprites becoming invisible etc etc)

And seriously !!! For 80$ or 90$ I expect something more than whats actually offered



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 12:43:36 AM)

I have to admit, I like little animated tanks running around the countryside, breaking down due to track failure after 80 kilometers, over-running hapless enemies, all of that stuff. But that is best in a game that focuses on, well, little animated tanks.

Now, if the symbology was German World War 2 standard (I recall The Longest Day had it), that would work. To be Frank (well, PDH still, but frank nonetheless), NATO symbology was designed to sort out the maps, standardize the knowledge, and make it easy to read a map. That said, my girlfriend still can't understand why the "Envelope Game" has tanks sounds in it.



neuromancer -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 12:45:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10
I agree that the chips provide great deal of info but nice sprites with pop-up boxes would do that too,


The pop up has MORE detail in WitE, if you need it, you go to it.

quote:


besides: the info in WITE is displayed in the sidebar-box too, so this is a moot point


Not hardly. Clicking on every unit to get the sidebar information to find a unit with some MPs left to try to close that encirclement, or fill the gap in your line, or whatever can get pretty tedious after a while. And you can't get a sidebar for the enemy units, while the counter gives you useful estimated information, again at a glance (you will want the mouse over for the additional information like fort level - although some play with the fort numbers up which would be over the middle of li'l tanks and men).

I get a great deal of information quickly by simply glancing at my units, without having to click on them or mouse over them. And my turns still take over an hour to do. Which again would be a hindrance to a wider audience. Making it take longer because its harder to get information quickly would not increase its appeal.

I've seen and played strategic level games using sprites instead of counters, I haven't been impressed. Always felt that they were more worried about making the game pretty than making the game.

Besides it distinctly takes away from the immersion level, as an earlier post said, this is a staff/ planning map* and wouldn't have little miniatures on it.

* sort of, real staff planning maps don't have hexes, and are really funky to read until you are used to them.

To be more accurate, these games are meant to reproduce the feel of the old school cardboard and paper boardgames, with more depth that can realistically only come from a computer game. Creating a Panzer General feel (which I played, and was not impressed by) or an RTS feel is again not going to do much to win over the existing audience, and isn't going to do much to get someone who has no pressing desire to read a 382 page manual to buy the game.

Okay, okay, its only 356 pages long after taking out the cover, recommended reading, credits, legal information, and ads.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 12:47:41 AM)

Still, Neuromance, admit it....a little animated Panzer V over-running a 45mm AT gun would be cool.



neuromancer -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 12:58:46 AM)

And yes this game does have a much steeper learning curve than HoI3.  I have the game, its not a hard game to learn or play.  Especially the vanilla version (helps that the AI blows).

quote:


And seriously !!! For 80$ or 90$ I expect something more than whats actually offered


Ah, like paying $5 on top of the price of the game for a handful of sprites like Paradox does?  No thanks, I'll take the solid game play and superior support of someone like Matrix over Paradox's crap coding and poor support any day.



Well Chris, I think you hold a distinctly minority opinion.  But of course you are free to let Matrix know your preference.

And they are free to ignore you.  Or not.  Who knows?

But considering that there are a lot of these 'traditional' WW2 style games out there (besides Matrix, look to HPS Simulations, they don't make anything but games like this), and very few Panzer General type games, I wouldn't hold my breath.



neuromancer -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 1:05:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch
Still, Neuromance, admit it....a little animated Panzer V over-running a 45mm AT gun would be cool.


[:D]
Dude, you are fun to have on a board. [8D]


Sure, little tanks and guys fighting does look cool, but that's an RTS, not a large scale strategy game like this. I do enjoy small unit RTS games where you focus on one area as your guys move along to accomplish a mission. They are fun and do look cool. But this is something else entirely.

Hamburgers and Sundaes. You eat them both, they both taste good, and both are probably bad for you. But they are fundamentally very different things.

I don't want chocolate on my hamburger, or BBQ sauce on my ice cream*. Maybe there are those that do, but I'm not convinced they are the majority.


* My brother did BBQ sauce on ice cream by accident once, said it was the most disgusting thing he ever ate.



Chris10 -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 1:18:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Still, Neuromance, admit it....a little animated Panzer V over-running a 45mm AT gun would be cool.

this [:D] well...sort of

quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
And yes this game does have a much steeper learning curve than HoI3. I have the game, its not a hard game to learn or play. Especially the vanilla version (helps that the AI blows).

HoI III brings a lot of automation which is good for the more casual player..
HoI II is considerably harder...but anyway...steep learning curves can be an indication of design flaws too.
quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
I'll take the solid game play and superior support of someone like Matrix over Paradox's crap coding and poor support any day.

thas simply untrue...on the long run Paradox always get their games running very nice and the massive Paradox Community is proove of that.
Besides...HoI II and III are various times as complicated as WITP or WITE as they feature hundreds of countrys who have to work actually ingame with their own AI managing production,diplomacy,trade,espionage and warfare independently which country the player chooses and they run real time. If you would know something about programming you would be aware of that fact and not judging about crappy coding while having no clue what you are talking about.
quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
Sure, little tanks and guys fighting does look cool, but that's an RTS, not a large scale strategy game like this.

arrrghhh...you getting worse with each post...HoI II or III is grand strategy on a worldwide scale...so do EU II or III and they do use sprites and povide great immersion...so ?




Anyway...I made my point...there is no need for me adding further things neither getting carried away in pointless disussions. [:)].



Aolain327 -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 2:03:12 AM)

I am quite pleased with WitE. In addition, I prefer NATO symbology....the little tanks, etc, all seem silly to me.



Wild -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 2:10:12 AM)

I have played HoI II for years. I'm playing Darkest hour WWI scenario now. I love HoI II, but in all honesty you can't compare it or panzer general to games like WitE or Witp. It would be like comparing checkers to chess. They are not even in the same ballpark in terms of complexity.

The grognards who play WitE prefer counters over sprites.




Scook_99 -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 2:32:30 AM)

Could you imagine how long one turn would take if full of animations? I am not saying either way if it would enhance this game. For me, I like NATO symbols for this game, the rewards come from encirclements and forcing your opponent to fight where you want him. I did love Panzer General I and II, and am really looking forward to Panzer Corps when it comes out. I hope they have mission briefings read by people with accents for their countries.

PDH, yes Longest Day used German military nomenclature on their counters. I found it more descriptive than NATO symbols, and could tell a lot more details about a unit with a glance. Sadly, that was one thing the reviews panned heavily when the game was released, most people didn't want to learn new symbiology.



kirkgregerson -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 3:56:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10

I read about WITE about a year ago and was really looking forward for this game. I did not checked back on this title until now as I thought it to be a good idea to wait for some patches after release to flatten out the biggest issues (those who play Paradox Hearts of Iron and other grand strategy games know why...LOL)
Anyway, today I thought to have a look on this game and read thru the forum and watched some youtube videos to see if its the great title I was expecting and I have to say:
Its a real pity but there is no way Iam going to bother with a WWII game wich uses only NATO symbols. Those who played the original Panzer General will remember how immersive it was despite the fact that its mechanics where a lot more simple but players got seriously attached to their units as you could see grow their experinece (the gold stars) and the Player was not stearing on some metaforical NATO symbols who dont provide any atmosphere at all. With todays graphics it would have been megaeasy to make some nice individual sprites for each unit and unti type (main unit) and for each individual country and implement one more zoom level to be able to appreciate them and to give the impression of some closer control.
The devs should really re-install the first Panzer General and play a few turns to be remembered what direct Player-Control means (move-attack or attack-move) and to realize how much better and immersive it is to have unit sprites instead of those crappy Nato symbols (besides...there was no Nato in WWII as far as I remember so it feels totally off to have to play with them)...

Just a shame...a first post really should be something positive [&:]




LOL, Chris thanks for the good laugh. Yeah, I liked those games with their cute little icons of vehicles, men, and plane. Sure, but that was like when I was 12. When you decide to grow up and play a real man's WW2 game, then you'll be ready for WitE. If you need the little girly icons to keep your attention span, then you're probably not cut out for WitE.

WitE is a beautiful game which is much sexier with the NATO symbols that give it a serious feel as a war game. I can't take a strategic war game serious with those non-NATo symbols.

Don't take it personal, just my opinions.



Mynok -> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games (6/8/2011 4:42:33 AM)


quote:

PG is the father of all hexfield wargames


You cannot be serious. Certainly not if you've played wargames for 30 years as you've claimed. PG is not even close to the father of hex based wargames. Not even freaking close.

I prefer the OKH symbols myself, but everyone knows the NATO symbols so it wasn't a bad choice for WITE. Little tanks running around? Not even close to appropriate for a division level game.

[>:]



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