Halftracks (Full Version)

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Iron Knight -> Halftracks (6/11/2011 5:14:49 AM)

I’d like to know if anyone uses halftracks in random games. I have always toyed with them but I haven’t really found them to be worth their cost, especially the research price tag. My typical track units usually look like this:

Unit 1, with 50-55 Stack:
Tank x 2
Track x 1
Infantry Gun x 1
Infantry x 20
Armored Car or Tank x 1

Unit 2, with 50-55 Stack:
Tank x 1
Track x 2
Infantry Gun x 2
Infantry x 25
Armored Car or Tank x 1

I am also working on a mod that changes SFTs, so if you have any suggestions on what could make halftracks more playable please post your thoughs.



Twotribes -> RE: Halftracks (6/11/2011 7:39:23 AM)

I use them. My units are bigger. My Mech units are usually 35 rifle 5 Mg, 5 Mortar, 5 bazooka, 2 assault guns, 1 Tank destroyer,1 flak, 3 half tracks.

I toyed with 50 stack point units, simply don't like them.

My armor Headquarters has 10 Half tracks in it.



Josh -> RE: Halftracks (6/11/2011 2:53:27 PM)

Halftracks are a must if you want some Inf with your Panzers. Besides they offer much better protection against Arty and Bombers. So yes I use them, although late in the game I must say, can't afford them early on.

@ Twotribes; with units that big you always have a stacking penalty when attacking from multiple hexes, so that's why I stick with the 50-55 rule. The multiple hexes attackbonus has decreased, but still... attacking from say 4-6 hexes still gives you a significant bonus.



Ande -> RE: Halftracks (6/11/2011 8:59:40 PM)

I don't care too much about the extra cost of halftracks simply because they can be built in tank factories. After a while your forces will become really saturated with tanks. It is then nice to use that production to mobilize your most experienced forces and artillery. Having mechanized artillery is a huge advantage in offencives.



Iron Knight -> RE: Halftracks (6/12/2011 1:58:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

Halftracks are a must if you want some Inf with your Panzers. Besides they offer much better protection against Arty and Bombers. So yes I use them, although late in the game I must say, can't afford them early on.



I think this is my problem with them. They are only usable after I've really won against the AI, but I've never seen them used in multi-player except in some rare games at the very end (I guess this is true of heavy tanks as well). I'd like to see them be viable in the earlier stages of the game, before the final push. Or am I just too reliant on infantry based units?



82ndtrooper -> RE: Halftracks (6/12/2011 4:44:53 AM)

I use halftracks a lot. They save your infantry from taking a lot of casualties so that allows me to produce more PP.  The less infantry I have to produce the more PP and supply I can produce.



Iron Knight -> RE: Halftracks (6/12/2011 7:04:16 AM)

Edit/removed post: Cool, didn't see the new prevent stats. Sad that I never noticed the effect though...



82ndtrooper -> RE: Halftracks (6/12/2011 7:32:09 AM)

no in ATG vic designed the half-tracks to help take damage for your infantry to make them more cost effective and worth while to build. If you use infantry a lot and you try using half-tracks you will see the difference in how many casualties your infantry takes. I consider them a vital piece of equipment and I get them asap.




Iron Knight -> RE: Halftracks (6/12/2011 7:58:31 AM)

Cool, I will have to pay more attention in my AI games. Do you upgrade them? Those III's & IV's are pricey.



Josh -> RE: Halftracks (6/12/2011 8:37:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper

no in ATG vic designed the half-tracks to help take damage for your infantry to make them more cost effective and worth while to build. If you use infantry a lot and you try using half-tracks you will see the difference in how many casualties your infantry takes. I consider them a vital piece of equipment and I get them asap.




That's a +1
There is indeed a huge difference in the number of casualties your Inf takes. So yes they are more worth than they were in AT, maybe I should consider building a Tankfactory early on... so I can churn out those halftracks.



phatkarp -> RE: Halftracks (6/12/2011 4:56:40 PM)

I've only used them so far in one PBEM game, and then only because I had a surplus of PP and some elite rifles I wanted to protect.  



Adam Rinkleff -> RE: Halftracks (6/19/2011 2:32:15 AM)

I assume the people who use them are playing much larger maps, I doubt people are making many of them on a small map where light tanks and armored cars are typically the decisive units. My plan is to revise the tech tree so it actually fits on a small map.



mllange -> RE: Halftracks (6/23/2011 6:02:57 AM)


quote:


That's a +1
There is indeed a huge difference in the number of casualties your Inf takes. So yes they are more worth than they were in AT, maybe I should consider building a Tankfactory early on... so I can churn out those halftracks.

quote:

There is indeed a huge difference in the number of casualties your Inf takes. So yes they are more worth than they were in AT, maybe I should consider building a Tankfactory early on... so I can churn out those halftracks.


Only if you have the resources (raw) to churn out the halftracks, otherwise your factory gains you little if anything.



Josh -> RE: Halftracks (6/23/2011 8:29:26 AM)

"...Only if you have the resources (raw) to churn out the halftracks, otherwise your factory gains you little if anything..."

Yep, that's the new balancing act Vic introduced with the oil/ore/supplies thing. Recently against the AI I took some tankfactories, only to find out that I was very low on ore. Then when I finally had ore I was much too low on oil, tanks stopped moving that kind of thing. So then, although being able to produce tanks/halftracks, I had to create new units that moved by horses... LOL. Quite historical I'd say. 




phatkarp -> RE: Halftracks (6/23/2011 3:22:05 PM)

It is the resource issue, oil in particular, that makes me hesitant to go for halftracks.  I also hate wasting PP on technologies that are only going to be marginally useful.  If I'm only going to have a handful of divisions with halftracks, the cost is usually not worth it. 

OTH, I've played some games with reduced research costs.  In those games I would definitely consider halftracks, but only after I find myself with a substantial fuel surplus.



EmTom -> RE: Halftracks (6/24/2011 10:10:05 AM)

Halftracks are very cheap to research. I think they are worth investing in as trucks also eat oil and cost production but they die much easier. Therefore art regiment with halftracks will remain mobile after some pounding but the same regiment with trucks will not.

The difference between trucks and halftrucks can not be calculated in raw, oil and production only but reliability and survivability has to be calculated too.

I only recently started to use halftracks and I am so happy to have them that I wonder how was I able to manage the war with trucks only. :)



Twotribes -> RE: Halftracks (6/24/2011 12:19:13 PM)

The oil issue bothers me. There is to high a cost in oil to use the mechanized forces. Germany had over 20 Panzer Divisions and numerous halftrack mounted Panzer Grenaiders. They did not have serious fuel problems until very late in the war. The US was totally vehicular mounted. So was the British and French Armies after 1940.

Further horses can NOT be used for strategic movement. And trains may be fuel free but they are limited to tracks and the raw cost in making them is HUGE.

However as to the " I need halftracks for my artillery to replace trucks" argument, my non mech forces are totally horse drawn, including all guns of all types. Trucks are to valuable to use for transport in a Division unless I am desperate. I research Halftrack as soon as I can and start pumping out however many my raw levels will allow. I research halftrack before medium tank.



Zaratoughda -> RE: Halftracks (6/24/2011 6:17:48 PM)

Hmmmm... for me, playing one hex start against 4-5 AI, I *only* build rifle units when I have a port and need to defend it from possible naval invasion. The fact that rifle can get up to 200 entrenchment is the major factor there.

Otherwise, other than staff and trucks in HQs, I build all armored cars, and go to medium tanks as the game wears on (medium tanks are blind, you still need armored cars so you can see), along with artillery and trucks, fighters and dive bombers.

This is a major offensive force approach and the problem is, running out of oil. Happens to me all the time and when it does happen, my fighters won't intercept.

So, for this approach you need to get all your oil up to L2 just for a minor campaign, and typically get all of it up to L3 for major operations. Yeah, sure helps to capture enemy oil that is already up to L3.

So, yeah, early on I got a LOT of engineers running around and spending all my production on PP so I can get those resources up.

Initially, I need to upgrade some ore first just to get things off the ground but I almost never have to get ore up to L3.

Another small problem is enemy units on mountain tops, or deep in woods that are difficult or impossible for armor to eliminate. I typically take out the ones on mountain tops with artillery or dive bombers, and sometimes build SMG (sometimes with mortors) when it is necessary to go deep into woods.

The AI, typically builds a combination of units and, their infantry cannot stand up to my army of armored cars, and they don't have enough armor otherwise. If they do, the dive bombers are great at taking out enemy armor. Then of course, the AI will build flak but usually that does not affect things too much.

Oh, the one thing the AI will do that is dangerous to this approach... build a lot of AT guns. These are DEADLY against armored cars, and you gotta take them out with dive bombers or... knock their readiness down to almost nothing with artillery and then attack.

Zaratoughda



Adam Rinkleff -> RE: Halftracks (7/5/2011 12:09:24 AM)

I made the following mod in the games I played: only trucks, halftracks,and armored cars can carry infantry. This gives them more of a purpose since you can't use the tanks for transport anymore.



british exil -> RE: Halftracks (7/5/2011 7:44:20 PM)

Amoured cars can carry inf but tanks not? Should be the other way round. The british Humber,the Daimler, the Staghound,the german Spähwagen 222, the Soviet BA64 these were small Vehicles. They can carry Inf. But a tank can't?
The light tanks maybe not they were just the size of the amoured cars, but a Sherman, a Matilda, a Tiger?

Maybe the PP's needed for research should be reduced or the "cost" to produce needs to be smaller then a Halftrack becomes more interesting.

The halftrack is a great transporter but the cost is just too high compared to a lorry/truck or the battle vehicles.

Mat



Ande -> RE: Halftracks (7/5/2011 11:42:52 PM)

Maybe halftracks would gain attractivnes if they got some combatstats in the higher levels. Halftrack 1 has no combat stats and halftrack 3 has about the combatstats of armoured cars.



82ndtrooper -> RE: Halftracks (7/6/2011 1:28:35 AM)

my most powerful unit is 40 inf  10 motor 10 machinegun and 10 bazooka with 1 at gun and 1 infantry gun with a tank destroyer and 5 halftracks to carry it all.

this unit is devastating and your infantry seldom dies

get all this teched up to lvl 3 or so and its really nasty.



Josh -> RE: Halftracks (7/6/2011 1:59:07 PM)

yes that really is a well made unit. [&o] 

I still think it's too big powerpointwise because a counter that size won't allow you attacking from multiple hexes... without a penalty that is. You can't attack your opponent from the rear without going over the 100 battlesize stack.
Men I wish the AI would make something like that. Or maybe not. [:)]



82ndtrooper -> RE: Halftracks (7/6/2011 4:58:01 PM)

well I am older and not a number cruncher, so I only pay attention to certain numbers and rules.  The one I pay the most attention to is the stack size of my units not being higher than 100. Other than that I dont pay as close attention as others do.  I attack from multiple directions with that and other units all the time and if I take more casualties than I should I dont notice it, what I do notice is if what ever I am attacking has survived my attack , which more times than not it hasnt :)

early game that unit looks more like this.  30inf, 10 machine guns,10 mortar, 1 at gun, 1 infantry gun. 4 half-tracks.  this is still a hard hitting unit and extremely good on defense against even armor.  My main point being that the half-tracks make a lot of difference. put this unit up against the same unit with no half-tracks and the one with half-tracks will win.

Being a military man I tend to build my units like I learned in the army. Combined arms and well balanced.  My main armor unit is 2 light tanks and 1 medium tank sometimes with 10 infantry.  The two light tanks are escorts for the medium tank.  I could and sometimes do add a second medium tank or a tank-destroyer to these units depending on what I am up against.  But normally I leave them like they are, they pack a good punch, they are small enough they dont drain all my fuel when I move several of them and it dosent cost me much at all to produce them and to keep reinforcements/replacements in my supply chain.  My main units are the mechinized infantry units described above with the armor units for probing and guarding my flanks.
All my infantry units have infantry, MG's and mortars in them or they don't leave the HQ. Being a old Paratrooper I know the importance of combined arms. The 82nd Airborne had a higher ratio of MG,mortar and AT weapons to infantryman then normal line units. It is one of the things that makes Airborne so deadly.

but i am starting to ramble haha

cheers





Josh -> RE: Halftracks (7/6/2011 9:58:35 PM)

Well I play exactly like you do. Same unitbuild. Almost always an AT gun in an Inf unit, sometimes even two AT guns in that unit... place it well and no armor will dislocate that counter. [&o] Add a few (expensive) toys like Mg's, Mortars and the like, add some nice and shiny halftracks and you're good to go.
With units as big as yours you probably *will* take some more casualties, but the penalty for overstacking is not so big you'd notice at first glance. Same with the Airforce stacking penalty, 100 is allowed. If you attack with say 200 (20 bombers or so) you still will obliterate your opponent's unit.

/ and as a off topic note; I turned fifty today  [sm=00000436.gif] so that makes me officially old too. LOL



british exil -> RE: Halftracks (7/6/2011 10:43:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh
/ and as a off topic note; I turned fifty today  [sm=00000436.gif] so that makes me officially old too. LOL



Congrats.

Mat



Josh -> RE: Halftracks (7/7/2011 2:07:26 PM)

Vielen dank.

[:)]



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Halftracks (7/7/2011 9:11:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

Well I play exactly like you do. Same unitbuild. Almost always an AT gun in an Inf unit, sometimes even two AT guns in that unit... place it well and no armor will dislocate that counter. [&o] Add a few (expensive) toys like Mg's, Mortars and the like, add some nice and shiny halftracks and you're good to go.
With units as big as yours you probably *will* take some more casualties, but the penalty for overstacking is not so big you'd notice at first glance. Same with the Airforce stacking penalty, 100 is allowed. If you attack with say 200 (20 bombers or so) you still will obliterate your opponent's unit.

/ and as a off topic note; I turned fifty today  [sm=00000436.gif] so that makes me officially old too. LOL


Got me beat by about ~ 1.5 years. I'll bet I get into a comfy retirement before you though !



Meanfcker -> RE: Halftracks (3/20/2013 1:40:32 AM)

Hi guys,
We have started to use halftracks extensively in our multiplayer games.
In the early game, I just transfer 3 rifles out of a garrison unit and drop a halftrack on it and presto chango, we have a moble unit with decent recon that retreats with small losses. These units help to identify and to slow down enemy offensives and give time to build a counter attack force.
They are good for neutralizing the high mobility and striking power of cavalry as well.
As soon as production affords it, I start to assemble 4 medium tanks, 1 halftrack and a full compliment of mixed infantry.
These new formations are very effective when you are in a hard fought tank campaign, which most MP games inevitably become.
This of coarse requires a serious investment in oil, but it definitely worth the effort.
Meanie.



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