RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (Full Version)

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Erik Rutins -> RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (6/14/2011 3:14:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
The battle descriptions are also not entirely accurate. For instance: I've yet to encounter a single minefield, both in offensive and defensive scenarios, even when the description says (for example) that likely avenues of attack have been heavily mined.


We'll test for this and confirm they are being generated. It worked in the past, but it's certainly possible something broke between the briefing and the generation of minefields along the way.

Regards,

- Erik



dazoline II -> RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (6/14/2011 3:17:44 PM)

I didn't do enough testing to find out.
The info I got back from the function that creates the units indicated the percentages were from none of the presets.
You'll note the precentage I did record is a bit like the Soviet Infantry Battalion but Infantry % is at 50 rather than 65 and Armor is at 18 rather than 5.

I could be mistaken and there is more code that my small sample set or limited persual of the code didn't let me observe. Such as varying the % of a preset per type per battle. But it does strike me as odd that the variance in Inf and tanks as as large as it was.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

It should use the presets defined within the Random Campaign files. Are you saying this is not happening in your testing? The opposing force should be more infantry than tank heavy by design for the Panzer campaigns, just to avoid wiping out the player's force in one or two battles.

Regards,

- Erik





Erik Rutins -> RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (6/14/2011 3:25:17 PM)

Looking at the 1st Panzer Division campaign, for the initial battles it should be using the "Soviet vs 1st Panzer Attack.xml" preset in the \Data\Presets folder, which has these settings:

<preset title="Force" armour="40" gun="5" air="5" artillery="10" transport="5" infantry="35" name="Soviet vs 1st Panzer Attack" id="Soviet vs 1st Panzer Attack" side="Russian"> </preset>

Which campaign were you testing when you ended up with 50% infantry? I believe the RBG may also adjust this a bit based on the map template to make sure the forces fit within the map, so some variance can be expected, but I wouldn't expect it to be that great.

Regards,

- Erik



ComradeP -> RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (6/14/2011 3:42:48 PM)

quote:

That's by design. Not all players are as skilled as you are or willing to restart to avoid losses and we found in testing that if we balanced it to have more Soviet armor in each battle, the loss rate for the German side would get too high and players would not be able to finish the campaign.


Thanks for the compliment, but restarting has more to do with it than just skill. I'd estimate that I would normally have lost about 1 tank per battle in 1941 even with the current settings, primarily due to the initial artillery barrage, a handful to Soviet tanks and AT guns, and one or two to close assaults.

In terms of battles, combat intensity in a short random campaign is pretty low, with a battle a month or less, but at over 90 battles, intensity increases to 3 or 4 per month, so losses will mount within a much shorter time than they would normally do in a short campaign.

You won't hear me bragging about the campaign being too easy as a whole, as it would still be fairly difficult without restarting, but I did expect to fight more tanks, or at least a better balance between enemy tanks and infantry. For example: the enemy has a combined arms force in almost every battle, whilst the Soviets realistically didn't have nearly enough armour for that in the AGC area in 1941.

I was expecting to fight two kinds of battles: one against a good amount of infantry, with a handful of AT guns, and one against a mostly armoured force, with about two dozen or so tanks at the least, but with little to no infantry.

All in all, I think the random campaigns (at least 7th Panzer's one) might be more enjoyable with more variation in terms of the enemy force you encounter during certain types of battles (for example: primarily infantry in Soviet defensive battles, primarily armour in meeting engagements and a combined arms force when the Soviets are attacking). As suggested elsewhere, adding 2 more platoons of PzG's/motorized infantry would also be nice. It would give the player a company of infantry to go along with his company of tanks. Given the numbers of Rifle squads or MG team concentrations I normally face, using just a single platoon of infantry for any non-defensive task is pretty suicidal. You just don't have the firepower to deal with the Soviet infantry when all you can counter them with is 3 squads, so I tend to use primarily tanks against Soviet infantry.



Erik Rutins -> RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (6/14/2011 3:54:41 PM)

Good feedback, thanks ComradeP. I agree that more variation and those types of forces would be historical and fun. With that said, the concerns Dazoline raised about the existing presets possibly not being respected (18% armor instead of 40%, 50% infantry instead of 35%) has me a bit concerned. Once we either rule out or fix any issue there, we'll add some more presets to make the opposing forces a bit more varied.

Regards,

- Erik



dazoline II -> RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (6/14/2011 4:16:31 PM)

1st Pz Div Short.
I did it again and came up with 241 out of 487 for inf: 49% and 90 out of 487 for tanks: 18%.

Note:
The alert for giving this type of info is on line 3494 of the unmodded RBG.
when reading the output type 0 is infantry and type 5 is armour.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Looking at the 1st Panzer Division campaign, for the initial battles it should be using the "Soviet vs 1st Panzer Attack.xml" preset in the \Data\Presets folder, which has these settings:

<preset title="Force" armour="40" gun="5" air="5" artillery="10" transport="5" infantry="35" name="Soviet vs 1st Panzer Attack" id="Soviet vs 1st Panzer Attack" side="Russian"> </preset>

Which campaign were you testing when you ended up with 50% infantry? I believe the RBG may also adjust this a bit based on the map template to make sure the forces fit within the map, so some variance can be expected, but I wouldn't expect it to be that great.

Regards,

- Erik




ComradeP -> RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (6/14/2011 9:27:33 PM)

As this is the most active thread, I'll just ask this here: the manual specifies that sloped armour and rounded armour are especially effective in terms of the protection they offer against certain types of ammunition. Is there a certain rule of thumb we can use to guestimate the additional protection? Say, sloped armour will usually be printed armour value+2 against APCR or something like that, or do the armour types just lower the chance of penetration, instead of making the armour effectively thicker when engaged with certain types of ammunition?



Mobius -> RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (6/15/2011 12:02:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

As this is the most active thread, I'll just ask this here: the manual specifies that sloped armour and rounded armour are especially effective in terms of the protection they offer against certain types of ammunition. Is there a certain rule of thumb we can use to guestimate the additional protection? Say, sloped armour will usually be printed armour value+2 against APCR or something like that, or do the armour types just lower the chance of penetration, instead of making the armour effectively thicker when engaged with certain types of ammunition?

It has a higher chance of deflection.
The penetration of all hits are adjusted by a multiplier. This comes from the Variable Penetration table. Which is four tables. Each one is for a different armor variation type. A random die is rolled on these tables so the multiplier can be different each hit. There is a "HighlySloped" armor table where you can see how a regular AP shell compares to APCR.



bairdlander2 -> RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (6/15/2011 12:56:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
The battle descriptions are also not entirely accurate. For instance: I've yet to encounter a single minefield, both in offensive and defensive scenarios, even when the description says (for example) that likely avenues of attack have been heavily mined.


We'll test for this and confirm they are being generated. It worked in the past, but it's certainly possible something broke between the briefing and the generation of minefields along the way.

Regards,

- Erik


I have encountered mines in my 4th battle of campaign.It didnt say it was a mine but one of my recon 222's exploded with no eneamy near or seen.Is it supposed to say whether it is a mine?It didnt,it just blew up with no explanation.



ComradeP -> RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (6/15/2011 11:33:54 AM)

quote:

This comes from the Variable Penetration table.


Thanks, I found it. There's much less of a penalty than I thought there would be.



Mobius -> RE: How to turn the Katyushas into Nerf Rounds? (6/15/2011 3:16:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
quote:

This comes from the Variable Penetration table.

Thanks, I found it. There's much less of a penalty than I thought there would be.

The armor thickness is already multiplied by 1/cos of the slope angle. So that penalty is on top of that.



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