Fortress Java (Full Version)

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Bandkanon -> Fortress Java (6/21/2011 9:22:07 PM)

Hello everyone,

I am playing as Japan and my opponent has pulled everything out of Malaya (as much as possible) and garrisoned batavia and Java overall. He even threw in 11th Indian Division and the AVG into Java. He has about 2000av now in Java. Now its beginning of March and I have two divisions north of Batavia, but I lost several transports already getting those troops in.

First of all, I am a bit annoyed at this move. Is Fortress Java gamey by pulling out everything out to Java.

Second, how do I defeat this with minimal damage to my forces. Can I just ignore Java for awhile and take the rest of the SRA and leave Java last to wither away. Is there enough supply to make Java self sufficient?

Please help



DivePac88 -> RE: Fortress Java (6/21/2011 9:33:13 PM)

No Fortress Java is not gamey, and now you know where he is, so go and get him.



jeffk3510 -> RE: Fortress Java (6/21/2011 9:36:36 PM)

Completely cut him off, and choke the island...that would be a b***h to keep it supplied if you owned all of the DEI, Solomons, NG, you name it....



Cribtop -> RE: Fortress Java (6/21/2011 9:42:57 PM)

Fortress Java is easier to handle than Sumatra or Timor, IMHO, because Java is large enough that the Allies really can't afford to defend all the landing sites in strength. You should be able to put 5 or 6 divisions plus tanks and engineers ashore after you establish air superiority. It will take commitment of lots of LBA and probably KB, but isn't gamey and can be countered.



Chickenboy -> RE: Fortress Java (6/21/2011 9:46:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bandkanon

Hello everyone,

I am playing as Japan and my opponent has pulled everything out of Malaya (as much as possible) and garrisoned batavia and Java overall. He even threw in 11th Indian Division and the AVG into Java. He has about 2000av now in Java. Now its beginning of March and I have two divisions north of Batavia, but I lost several transports already getting those troops in.

First of all, I am a bit annoyed at this move. Is Fortress Java gamey by pulling out everything out to Java.

Second, how do I defeat this with minimal damage to my forces. Can I just ignore Java for awhile and take the rest of the SRA and leave Java last to wither away. Is there enough supply to make Java self sufficient?

Please help


Hi Bandkanon,

How did your opponent manage to get so many troops from Singapore / Malaya to Java? By shipborne movement? How was this managed with your naval superiority in theatre. If you didn't have naval superiority in theatre, why not? Didn't you have IJNAF forces on hand to torpedo his ships making this move?

If he was able to strip all LCUs out of Malaya-Java, he must have largely bypassed building up Sumatra too. Why didn't you step into Sumatra to stop this movement immediately?

If you didn't have forces in place to prevent these moves, then you made a monumental mistake. Securing the DEI is a first order importance for Japanese players. Everything else comes after that. If your ships were busy chasing around the empty reaches of the Central Pacific or up by Bombay-way, you had them out of position to interdict his efforts at replacement.

Now, what can you do at this stage?

1. Bad news: You cannot ignore Java any longer. A heavily reinforced Java is a very, very dangerous Java. Take it and take it fast or you may never be able to secure the DEI properly. He will be interdicting oil and fuel out of Palembang, Soerbaja and Balikpapan. You will be hosed when you cannot utilize transport from these critical sectors.

2. Good news: You've got some sizeable LCUs that have cleared the Malay peninsula-hopefully ahead of the historical timetable. Use them to reinforce your efforts around Batavia and push him into the sea. Allied forces with lots of supply can hold out for quite some time in the mountainous and rough terrain of the middle of the island. Do what you can to keep him in the less-critical hexes.

Gamey?

Not at all. If the Allies can make this work, more power to them.



Canoerebel -> RE: Fortress Java (6/21/2011 10:00:06 PM)

It's tough for a fairly new player to know how to handle an unexpected and daunting situation, but I can tell you that an experienced Japanase player would only lick his lips and rub his hands together if an Allied player were so irresponsible as to maroon a big force on Java in early 1942.  You can isolate Java by taking the surrounding terrain, bomb and starve his troops to death, and probably get shots at his desperate attempts to reinforce, resupply, or pull a Dunkirk.  You've got him just where you want him if you can think rationally and proceed intelligently in dealing with the situation.  But that's easier said than done if you're relatively new to the game.  Good luck.

P.S.  It aint in the least bit gamey.



Miller -> RE: Fortress Java (6/21/2011 10:02:11 PM)

IMO if you play it right then Java is no more than a huge self serving POW camp for the Allies. Build up all the AF on Sumatra, the west coast of Borneo and Timor and he will not be able to resupply without taking unacceptable losses. Throw in some airfield and port bombing/bombardment and his troops will be eating grass by late 42..........



Miller -> RE: Fortress Java (6/21/2011 10:03:37 PM)

Damn beaten to it by the rebel scum[:@][;)]



SuluSea -> RE: Fortress Java (6/21/2011 10:32:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bandkanon
He has about 2000av now in Java. Now its beginning of March and I have two divisions north of Batavia, but I lost several transports already getting those troops in.



Hopefully you have plans to cut the island in two with a landing somewhere in the center of the island. I agree not gamey at all as you can't expect the allied player to sit and wait to be destroyed at their starting locations if escape is allowed.



Nemo121 -> RE: Fortress Java (6/21/2011 10:40:54 PM)

Festung Java is a sub-optimal choice, far inferior to Festung Sumatra.

Much has been written in AARs on how to defeat it, it shouldn't be all that difficult at all.

As to gameyness. Just because something is unexpected and you didn't prepare for it doesn't make it gamey. In real life the Spartans couldn't accuse Epaminondas of "being gamey" after Leuctra. They were too busy being dead because of his unorthodox and contrarian arrangement of the line.


On the plus side.... now's your time to innovate yourself and come up with something HE wasn't expecting.



ny59giants -> RE: Fortress Java (6/21/2011 11:22:01 PM)

Build up Oosthaven on southern tip of Sumatra and place an Air HQ there. Base Nell/Betty and Zeros there to make any reinforcement or supply convoys expensive for him to get in.

Take Denpasar off the southern tip of Java and build it up (see Oosthaven).

Break down your large recon units into thirds and recon each base for a few days to see where he is hiding his troops. This will help determine where to invade at a later date, plus start to bomb those bases to prevent fort building.



AW1Steve -> RE: Fortress Java (6/21/2011 11:29:26 PM)

Fortress Java? DAMNED! Why didn't I think of that![:D]



Bandkanon -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 12:27:04 AM)

Thanks for the encouragement everyone.

Yes, this is my first PBEM game. As for asking about it being gamey, I just wanted to know.

And Chickenboy is right, I absolutely screwed up on using my naval assets. I was too conservative and fearful of naval LBAs. So I didn't do as much as should in interdicting shipping.

Now, I think what is causing me to panic is the slowness of the game (not that it is bad, just that as someone coming from RTSs, I am somewhat uncomfortable to long term strategies). A strategy of slowly grinding him down and blockading Java will take how long? How deadly would land based bombers be to transports landing in the middle of Java. That was my biggest fear as to why I landed north of Batavia. I could actually give really heavy CAP from Sumatra.

Anyway, so now I think its best to start taking over the rest of the DEI and isolate Java. But how long would this take on average?

Thanks for all the replies, gentlemen.



Bandkanon -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 12:32:54 AM)

Hey Miller,

You mentioned late 42. Ok so it is a long term grind. That makes me feel better. Damn RTS and FPS games have made a younger generation of gamers into responding to faster environments. If I don't see an immediate positive result I begin to think something is horribly wrong.




topeverest -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 12:44:12 AM)

Bandkanan,

good advice here. You have a great opportunity...



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 12:53:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bandkanon

Thanks for the encouragement everyone.

Yes, this is my first PBEM game. As for asking about it being gamey, I just wanted to know.

And Chickenboy is right, I absolutely screwed up on using my naval assets. I was too conservative and fearful of naval LBAs. So I didn't do as much as should in interdicting shipping.

Now, I think what is causing me to panic is the slowness of the game (not that it is bad, just that as someone coming from RTSs, I am somewhat uncomfortable to long term strategies). A strategy of slowly grinding him down and blockading Java will take how long? How deadly would land based bombers be to transports landing in the middle of Java. That was my biggest fear as to why I landed north of Batavia. I could actually give really heavy CAP from Sumatra.

Anyway, so now I think its best to start taking over the rest of the DEI and isolate Java. But how long would this take on average?

Thanks for all the replies, gentlemen.


You really don't need to fear early Allied LBA. I don't mean send your transports in escorted and I don't mean don't provide CAP or run sweeps. But unless your opponent has trained up his bombers from day 1, then most of the Allied plane models are pure **** and their pilots can't even hit anything.

Move KB into the area and hope that he is dumb enough to attack. If he is then his air power will be shredded by your Zeros and chances are is that all you will take is OPs losses.
If he won't attack you, then run sweeps over his bases to see if you can draw out the fighters. If he won't do that then I think you mentioned that he drained Singapore of it's infantry. Take Singapore and build it up into a LBA for your IJA two engine bombers. You get get massive airfields there as well as a big port. Build it up and then pound Java unmercifully day in and day out. You can either destroy him in the air on or the ground.
Allied air power until late 1942 is absolute garbage. You really have nothing to fear. Be aggressive and force him to fight you or watch as all of his air power is destroyed on the ground.



Schanilec -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 3:41:13 PM)

Don't totally discount early allied airpower. PBY's at 1,000 feet are pretty potent. Also, since Singapore was abandoned. You must be having dinner in Calcutta. If not, why?



Nikademus -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 5:18:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bandkanon

Hello everyone,

I am playing as Japan and my opponent has pulled everything out of Malaya (as much as possible) and garrisoned batavia and Java overall. He even threw in 11th Indian Division and the AVG into Java. He has about 2000av now in Java. Now its beginning of March and I have two divisions north of Batavia, but I lost several transports already getting those troops in.

First of all, I am a bit annoyed at this move. Is Fortress Java gamey by pulling out everything out to Java.

Second, how do I defeat this with minimal damage to my forces. Can I just ignore Java for awhile and take the rest of the SRA and leave Java last to wither away. Is there enough supply to make Java self sufficient?

Please help


It can be gamey in that the new map allows Java to "truely" be turned into a fortress by use of the two Mountain Redoubts located within Java. Due to the way the supply rules work, Player 2 can ignore the need to protect cities and resources both politically as well as economically and create two very formidable "telephone poles" in those two hexes that will take weeks for Player one to reduce. Yes....it "is" annoying when it's done to that extreme, unfortunately it's also a legitimate game move. The effect of a large telephone pole of troops defeats counter-mechanisms of morale failure and low supply to a degree and of course the new Mountain defensive bonus makes it an extremely tough nut or couple of nuts to crack.



Smeulders -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 5:56:22 PM)

Then again, the mountain redoubts aren't a danger either. The Japanese player can take all the important bases and then take his sweet time reducing the redoubts. It will take some time and weaken the follow-up Japanese attacks, but it's not an insurmountable problem.



Nikademus -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 6:59:42 PM)

yes and no.

like the PI situation, leaving not one but TWO very large telephone poles full of enemy troops in your rear area is not something one wants to have to contemplate. First off it required Joe and I to station a good amount of troops there to make sure they "stayed put" Sooner or later they had to be dealt with and it cost us weeks of game time to acomplish. It bugged me because of course it was a move designed to exploit to the max the defensive terrains now present in AE but also because it defied the real life logic of the situation. Price one pays however for having a system that tries to do it all. As has been mentioned, the origins of the land combat code trace all the way back to the mostly jungle warfare module of Pacwar. It, along with no stacking limits per hex (outside of Atoll hexes now) makes reducing large telephone poles anywhere problamatic....more so in defensive friendly terrain like the mountain redoubts. There, low morale and experience and a complete lack of supply or replenishment are largely counteracted and it makes for a very tough nut to crack unless one is an offensive genius OR...unless the defender gets cocky and launches a counterattack that fails. (best strategy is to never attack and just sit there defensively)

The only way i know of to get around such things is to attack such locations first before the telephone poles can be established, which in turn begets more gamey play.....the most famous of them all.....the attack the fringes first and work your way back tactic. Since Joe and I refused to play along such lines we basically handicaped ourselves and ran into "telephone poles" whenever we advanced to a distant future objective.




Chickenboy -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 7:17:38 PM)

Most Japanese players have other plans-tier III objectives-in mind for their Java troops. Keeping 5-6 IJA divisions in static defensive formation on Java just to keep the Allies 'honest' is not tenable if one is to keep on target for their next objectives. A well-supplied Allied player's redoubts can hold out many months. Sure, you can "take back" Java by the end of 1942, but such a delay would effectively halt the Japanese offensive capabilities in the war's initial stages.



Numdydar -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 7:21:41 PM)

I thought the units would just eventually die off without supplies. Is that not correct?



Schanilec -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 7:24:21 PM)

I have a few LCU's on Sumatra holed up in two interior dot bases no supplies. 27 July 1942. Nothing I can do for them. I guess just wait and see.



Canoerebel -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 7:32:07 PM)

I still don't understand the concern from an experienced Japanese player's perspective.  Nearly all of the IJ players I know would relish the idea of the Allies marooning a stack of units in the interior sections of Java.  The Japanese would isolate Java, bomb out the supplies, and attend to the Allied prisoners of war at their leisure.  Meanwhile, said IJ players would take advantage of the reduction in Allied forces elsewhere - said reduction occuring because the Allied player was foolish enough to create his own prisoner-of-war camp.

Two "telephone poles" in the jungle?  Hah!



Nikademus -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 7:47:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I thought the units would just eventually die off without supplies. Is that not correct?


In WitP, AE or otherwise it takes forever and again, the new enhanced defensive terrain bonuses (Mountain....urban) triple or even quadrupple defensive strength. The more troops you have at the base in question, the greater their exponential effect defensive wise. small out of supply LCU's are easy meat, but like the air combat routine, get "mass" and it's impact increases exponentially. This is part of why stacking limits have always been a hot topic for this game. The same hex system though makes it very hard to implement so with the exception of atoll hexes wasn't tried.




Nikademus -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 7:50:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I still don't understand the concern from an experienced Japanese player's perspective.  Nearly all of the IJ players I know would relish the idea of the Allies marooning a stack of units in the interior sections of Java.  The Japanese would isolate Java, bomb out the supplies, and attend to the Allied prisoners of war at their leisure.  Meanwhile, said IJ players would take advantage of the reduction in Allied forces elsewhere - said reduction occuring because the Allied player was foolish enough to create his own prisoner-of-war camp.

Two "telephone poles" in the jungle?  Hah!


Except that the units that were used in our case were expendible to begin with. They were largely native units with maybe a bit of reinforcement since noone in their right mind ever sends the Singapore reinforcements to Singapre. They were then concentrated in these two bases. All else in Java was abandoned including the very targets both sides either wanted to defend or deny to the other. It was a tactic strictly designed to buy time. Hence, there was no real reduction in Allied forces elsewhere. No as i mentioned there are counters but they are equally ahistorical hence i don't do them in my games. That being the "attack the fringes first" strategy before the hindsight and/or most valuable bases are invested with telephone poles.

So put another way, by early 42 our opponents had established 3 major telephone pole redoubts in the PI/SRA area in addition to whatever defensive nuclei were being developed else where. (3 other known TP positions building up were Darwin and PM of course along with Suva)

Its one thing to leave the PI TP to wither as it did historically....but with the two huge positions in Java as well at the same time....that equaled a tying up of considerable land assets. I don't see how Joe and I could just "ignore" all of that and move on. You can only leave so many forces cut off in the rear. It's not like "island hopping" where a overabundance of sea and air power could serve alone to isolate specific outposts. These were landlocked major enemy troop infestations.



Chickenboy -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 10:21:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I still don't understand the concern from an experienced Japanese player's perspective.  Nearly all of the IJ players I know would relish the idea of the Allies marooning a stack of units in the interior sections of Java.  The Japanese would isolate Java, bomb out the supplies, and attend to the Allied prisoners of war at their leisure.  Meanwhile, said IJ players would take advantage of the reduction in Allied forces elsewhere - said reduction occuring because the Allied player was foolish enough to create his own prisoner-of-war camp.

Two "telephone poles" in the jungle?  Hah!

Dan, the operative question is 'with what'? Namely, with what will the Japanese be able to extend their advance elsewhere if many of their forces are busy garrisoning Java or slowly reducing the entrenched Allies. If 5-6 IDs are held up in Java, that's going to take a major bite out of forces available to move elsewhere.

Note that the OP conundrum is the reinforcement of Java with forces from British Malaya and Singapore. My opinion is that it is absolutely better for the Allies to lengthen the survival of these forces away from Singapore than it is for them to be captured / killed in Singapore. If that extended holdout happens to take place on Java, so be it.

Supplied Allied troops on Java in defensible positions will impose a major delay on Japanese forces trying to clear the DEI. Full stop.



Chickenboy -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 10:22:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I still don't understand the concern from an experienced Japanese player's perspective.  Nearly all of the IJ players I know would relish the idea of the Allies marooning a stack of units in the interior sections of Java.  The Japanese would isolate Java, bomb out the supplies, and attend to the Allied prisoners of war at their leisure.  Meanwhile, said IJ players would take advantage of the reduction in Allied forces elsewhere - said reduction occuring because the Allied player was foolish enough to create his own prisoner-of-war camp.

Two "telephone poles" in the jungle?  Hah!


Except that the units that were used in our case were expendible to begin with. They were largely native units with maybe a bit of reinforcement since noone in their right mind ever sends the Singapore reinforcements to Singapre. They were then concentrated in these two bases. All else in Java was abandoned including the very targets both sides either wanted to defend or deny to the other. It was a tactic strictly designed to buy time. Hence, there was no real reduction in Allied forces elsewhere. No as i mentioned there are counters but they are equally ahistorical hence i don't do them in my games. That being the "attack the fringes first" strategy before the hindsight and/or most valuable bases are invested with telephone poles.

So put another way, by early 42 our opponents had established 3 major telephone pole redoubts in the PI/SRA area in addition to whatever defensive nuclei were being developed else where. (3 other known TP positions building up were Darwin and PM of course along with Suva)

Its one thing to leave the PI TP to wither as it did historically....but with the two huge positions in Java as well at the same time....that equaled a tying up of considerable land assets. I don't see how Joe and I could just "ignore" all of that and move on. You can only leave so many forces cut off in the rear. It's not like "island hopping" where a overabundance of sea and air power could serve alone to isolate specific outposts. These were landlocked major enemy troop infestations.

Well said too.



Canoerebel -> RE: Fortress Java (6/22/2011 10:41:31 PM)

All of this depends on too many factors to come up with a single hard-and-fast rule.

I do not think the Allies should always pull units out of Singapore.  There are times when defending there can be very effective, buying the Allies important time and space in the Bay of Bengal.  On the other hand, there are times when it's best for the Allies to evacuate Singers and use those troops elsewhere.

I do not see how "telephone stacks" in remote Java terrain would worry an experienced IJ player.  Japan can effectively isolate Java and then attend to those stacks mainly with bombers, finally mopping up with a few mixed brigades or so, just as the IJ player does at Bataan/Clark Field.  I can't imagine an experienced player devoting IJA divisions to mop up operations.

Unless the Allied player can get supply to Java, his troops are going to whither away under a well-thought-out Japanese bombing campaign.  And an IJ player would make a shambles of any Allied efforts to ram home supply. 

Allied telephone poles in remote terrain means the IJ player can take and build the important bases in and near Java.  The Allies won't be able to accomplish anything meaningful.

As an Allied player, I can't imagine trying the telephone pole tactic against a good, experienced IJ player.



mc3744 -> RE: Fortress Java (6/23/2011 12:39:57 AM)

I'm trying to get back into the game (used to play WitP). This thread was very interesting. But I have two very important (for me [;)]) questions.
1) what's a telephone pole in Java?
2) where are the redoubts you talk about? I.e. Wouldn't you hold out in Soerebaja or Batavia? If not where?

Thanks [:)]



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