I stop playing for now (Full Version)

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Speedy2511 -> I stop playing for now (6/21/2011 11:23:06 PM)

Hi all!

First i had to say, i like the game. But i want it to like it more.

But the AI stops me to like it more. In an actual game the AI Races have 10 or more colonies then me, but i had the best military strength. I could easily whipe them out, if i want it. That is not a lot of fun. I mean, what are they doing with their money? I have only 10 colonies, but make a lot more money then the next AI Player with 20 colonies.

I hope the devs are working on a better AI. I mean with ROTS its better then before, but not enough. The AI is to passive in wars. Nothing is changing on the map.

That is very boring.

Please devs pimp the AI!

For example SOTS and GalCiv 2 have one of the best AI's in an 4X Game.

Greetings from Germany
Nico



cookie monster -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/21/2011 11:30:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy2511

Please devs pimp the AI!

For example SOTS and GalCiv 2 have one of the best AI's in an 4X Game.

Greetings from Germany
Nico


I agree "Pimp my AI" would be a very popular television program.

If you look on Amazon there are alot of books on AI programming however they are written in C++ rather than DW's C#.

You can take a look at the "Giving the AI some life thread" on the main page, where DW's AI is discussed.

Hallo Deutschland.



lordxorn -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/21/2011 11:33:16 PM)

I am curious to know how you set up your game Speedy.

I think a part of the problem with DW and the AI issues are the settings which are spread between a few setup screens, and the fact that you have to individually set each AI empire, instead of Civ IV's easy one setting rules them all, like Prince, Diety, etc...



ASHBERY76 -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/21/2011 11:41:01 PM)

I expect better A.I in the next expansion but it will also have different victory conditions that have more importance on non military themes,hopefully.



Speedy2511 -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/21/2011 11:43:44 PM)

Thank you guys!

@lordxorn

If i can remember, i choose a 700 star galaxy with 10 AI's normal pirates, and the agressive setting one over normal, with many good planets (don't know how its called).

i picked the races myself, and gave them a better start, but with random goverments.

@cookie monster
Yeah, i think it's hard to program a good AI, and the devs do what they can. But now the Ai's are building to less warships and attack to carefully. Or send their ships from one end of the galaxy to the other without fuel. And that's not funny.

Greetings from Germany
Nico



Brainsucker -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/22/2011 3:25:12 AM)

AI is always the problem in any PC game in the world. WHY?

These are the reason :

1. You need a lot of game experience in order to make a good AI. So, in order to make a better AI, the AI creators need a lot of information about how the gamers play their game. a good AI is an AI that can counter the players play style.

2. Human players always improve and able to adapted with AI play style, while the AI can't. So..., the AI creators need to improve the AI periodically (this is the problem as the developer won't be able to update it periodically). Or else, the players will feel bored and move on to another games.

So..., I suggest the developer to create "AI creator Mod" so the experience players can create a very challenging AI and can share it in this forum. By then, players will always feel challenged as the game has a lot of challenging AI stocks.




Data -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/22/2011 6:32:27 AM)

Solid points there, Brainsucker....and an awesome idea with the ai creator, galciv2 had something similar but I think this will become the norm from now on. Mod the hell out of each game [:)]



MartialDoctor -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/22/2011 7:02:01 AM)

Although the AI issues are an issue, you can still make the game challenging.

Since there aren't any difficulty levels, which really need to be added in the near future, you just need to create an environment that is more challenging.  Make the other races larger and with a higher technology level than yourself.

And I totally agree with Brainsucker.  Mod developers have made some great AIs in other games!



greywolf1 -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/22/2011 8:54:46 AM)

Don't be unfair, guys. Game design is done with a lot of good ideas and intentions in mind, but without any real practical experience with the game itself, in this case by a small team with limited resources in terms of time and money.
After the game is released, there is a bunch of experienced people with time enough to study the AI, learn its mechanisms, beat it - and then shout at the designers.
The other side of the coin is that the AI is probably good enough to be a real challenge for the majority of players. It is definitely for me - and I know of a couple more ways to make my life harder when I've learnt to beat the AI easily on "normal".

Yes, it would be nice to mod the AI. It would be nice if the designers would be able to sit together with power players from time to time and adjust the AI based on the experiences of these guys. But this would cost a lot of time (discussing and agreeing the changes + enhancing the AI + fixing the unavoidable new bugs ...) - and who would pay for it? Not to mention that, whatever is done, at least 50% of the audience will not like it, would have set other priorities, moved in different directions.
Everything's possible, but not everything is feasible.

Speedy2511, have you tried to introduce handicaps? To invent special rules, like not using certain methods and/or tools against the AI, which make it more difficult for you to win without killing your fun? I'm better at RPG's than at 4X's, and I'm doing this frequently when I like a game but have found a perfect strategy to beat it reliably. Like don't use weapons, or armour, or spells, or whatever - play a different role (rather than playing your normal role differently), with other words.
How about playing the role of nomadic pirates? Or peaceful traders? Set yourself other goals, like getting somewhere, making a certain amount of money without fighting, forging a huge alliance, manipulating your opponents to fight against and eliminate each other (would this be possible at all in DW?), etc - whatever suits your interests. The AARs in this forum contain a few quite interesting examples of this kind, by the way.

YOU want to have fun. Use your NI ("natural intelligence" :-)) in creative ways rather than waiting for a greatly enhanced AI which is unlikely to come (except in quantitative ways, maybe - more of everything).




cookie monster -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/22/2011 9:31:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

Although the AI issues are an issue, you can still make the game challenging.

Since there aren't any difficulty levels, which really need to be added in the near future, you just need to create an environment that is more challenging.  Make the other races larger and with a higher technology level than yourself.

And I totally agree with Brainsucker.  Mod developers have made some great AIs in other games!



I did that. The ideas were from my "Generating a Difficult Game" thread. The game does turn into a long hard slog, as soon as the AI's have fortified bunkers they can prove difficult to overcome.

I think the game become easier after the numerous pirates sometimes stole my designs and proceeded to virtually destroy the AI empires industry. Their mining stations were few and far between towards the end of the game.

The game really needs a difficulty level. What's so hard about multiplying the AI's research/weapons/troop strength/spy's/ship properties by a factor for every increase in difficulty level???

quote:

ORIGINAL: greywolf1

Don't be unfair, guys. Game design is done with a lot of good ideas and intentions in mind, but without any real practical experience with the game itself, in this case by a small team with limited resources in terms of time and money.
After the game is released, there is a bunch of experienced people with time enough to study the AI, learn its mechanisms, beat it - and then shout at the designers.
The other side of the coin is that the AI is probably good enough to be a real challenge for the majority of players. It is definitely for me - and I know of a couple more ways to make my life harder when I've learnt to beat the AI easily on "normal".

Yes, it would be nice to mod the AI. It would be nice if the designers would be able to sit together with power players from time to time and adjust the AI based on the experiences of these guys. But this would cost a lot of time (discussing and agreeing the changes + enhancing the AI + fixing the unavoidable new bugs ...) - and who would pay for it? Not to mention that, whatever is done, at least 50% of the audience will not like it, would have set other priorities, moved in different directions.
Everything's possible, but not everything is feasible.

Speedy2511, have you tried to introduce handicaps? To invent special rules, like not using certain methods and/or tools against the AI, which make it more difficult for you to win without killing your fun? I'm better at RPG's than at 4X's, and I'm doing this frequently when I like a game but have found a perfect strategy to beat it reliably. Like don't use weapons, or armour, or spells, or whatever - play a different role (rather than playing your normal role differently), with other words.
How about playing the role of nomadic pirates? Or peaceful traders? Set yourself other goals, like getting somewhere, making a certain amount of money without fighting, forging a huge alliance, manipulating your opponents to fight against and eliminate each other (would this be possible at all in DW?), etc - whatever suits your interests. The AARs in this forum contain a few quite interesting examples of this kind, by the way.

YOU want to have fun. Use your NI ("natural intelligence" :-)) in creative ways rather than waiting for a greatly enhanced AI which is unlikely to come (except in quantitative ways, maybe - more of everything).




We are not being unfair and we are not shouting.

There is no such ingame option to play as "Nomadic Pirates". Without warfare with handicaps the 33% win conditions are only achievable through monotonous taking over of empires. A peaceful game cant be won unless you crash colony techs. A recent thread explained "Do I really have to go to war to win?"

I have explained at great length in other threads some of DW's issues, I'm not gonna re-write them here as evidence.

I'm not gonna sing the praises of DW although I will say the game has a solid base.

I only got 6 weeks gameplay out of DWROTS before I had worked out a formula for success, that's not much of a return on a £50 investment. Hehe now I do sound like the stereotypical TROLL!



Data -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/22/2011 10:10:55 AM)

The argument is valid and no one can mistake you for a troll here.



greywolf1 -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/22/2011 1:36:45 PM)

cookie monster: I'm not saying I disagree with you (nor am I trying to sing the praises of DW), and I enjoyed reading your contributions. I was trying to say that, given the limitations of the game a player perceives, it's still up to said player (to a degree, at least) to tread the game into the bin - or to try to get more bang for his or her precious bucks.

If you lose interest as soon as you figure out your formula for success, then, well, then that's the way it is. If you are happy to measure your success by achieving the built-in in-game victory conditions only, then that's the way it is for you, too.
But it doesn't have to be that way. You can define "success" in any way you want, and you can try to achieve it using different approaches. My examples may not have been good ones (I thought there was someone who described playing nomadic pirates in an AAR), and they may not be to your liking, but this doesn't invalidate the point.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not judging anyone, just trying to show possibilities, potential, alternative approaches, which may or may not be viable or valid for you (or me or someone else).  



Brainsucker -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/22/2011 3:15:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: greywolf1

Don't be unfair, guys. Game design is done with a lot of good ideas and intentions in mind, but without any real practical experience with the game itself, in this case by a small team with limited resources in terms of time and money.
After the game is released, there is a bunch of experienced people with time enough to study the AI, learn its mechanisms, beat it - and then shout at the designers.
The other side of the coin is that the AI is probably good enough to be a real challenge for the majority of players. It is definitely for me - and I know of a couple more ways to make my life harder when I've learnt to beat the AI easily on "normal".

Yes, it would be nice to mod the AI. It would be nice if the designers would be able to sit together with power players from time to time and adjust the AI based on the experiences of these guys. But this would cost a lot of time (discussing and agreeing the changes + enhancing the AI + fixing the unavoidable new bugs ...) - and who would pay for it? Not to mention that, whatever is done, at least 50% of the audience will not like it, would have set other priorities, moved in different directions.
Everything's possible, but not everything is feasible.

Speedy2511, have you tried to introduce handicaps? To invent special rules, like not using certain methods and/or tools against the AI, which make it more difficult for you to win without killing your fun? I'm better at RPG's than at 4X's, and I'm doing this frequently when I like a game but have found a perfect strategy to beat it reliably. Like don't use weapons, or armour, or spells, or whatever - play a different role (rather than playing your normal role differently), with other words.
How about playing the role of nomadic pirates? Or peaceful traders? Set yourself other goals, like getting somewhere, making a certain amount of money without fighting, forging a huge alliance, manipulating your opponents to fight against and eliminate each other (would this be possible at all in DW?), etc - whatever suits your interests. The AARs in this forum contain a few quite interesting examples of this kind, by the way.

YOU want to have fun. Use your NI ("natural intelligence" :-)) in creative ways rather than waiting for a greatly enhanced AI which is unlikely to come (except in quantitative ways, maybe - more of everything).




well, we are not talking about "asking" the developer / designers to sit and play with us. We just ask a AI mod so the community can evolve by their own. What the designers do just make a game, make the AI mod-able, make an adequate AI, then let the community to enhance the AI.

It won't cost a lot of budget. With the up to date AI (that created by the community), the players will play longer (it is even better if the game has PvP feature, but well...). The designer just need to throw new Expansions periodically (new feature, new idea, and new AI mod), and the game will evolve by itself in the market.



greywolf1 -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/22/2011 3:35:59 PM)

This is getting interesting!
Moddable AI sounds fantastic. It would be nice to hear the opinion of the developers regarding the feasibility and their willingness to support such an approach.
I may have missed some discussions of the past: Do we have an idea what "moddable AI" means? Which parameters we would like to influence? Whether we simply want to make our opponents stronger by giving them more resources or information, or whether we talk about using more processing time / power to let the AI plan further ahead? 



Data -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/22/2011 3:37:15 PM)

the latter, the former is not really a stronger AI



Speedy2511 -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/22/2011 10:37:07 PM)

I think the problem is the AI isn't planing anything. When an Ai is at war with an other AI then you can see that they are sending fleets or ships to one system. Then when on route they sent the ships to an other system, and so on and on. Then the ships run out of fuel and fly verry slowly to the next fuelstation, in this time the ships are useless.

And the AI is building to few ships. On of the guys in my game has 20 colonies more than me, but i had more ships and more income. How? The AI had a lot more people.

Greetings from Germany
Nico



TGS -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/23/2011 2:44:38 AM)

I don't think the AI is that bad. You can configure it to be "harder". But that being said... trust me it's a very slippery scope having AI be decent... and having them be insanely overpowered in their efficiency. Another Indie game I play that has been mentioned on this forum before had an AI revamp a few patches ago and the AI is now insanely powerful just due to their massivey efficiency. To really compete against them even on "Medium" you have to make heavy use of pause which in a real time game is a bit silly imo.

Also you can simply allow them to cheat which also isn't very fun. Honestly I really just hope they do a multiplayer version of this game at some point. That will give more replayability. You simply can't predict human behavior like you can AI behavior.



Data -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/23/2011 8:26:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TGS

You simply can't predict human behavior like you can AI behavior.



Truer words were never spoken, my friend....that gets my vote for MP.



J HG T -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/23/2011 9:15:28 AM)

AI in todays games aren't truly AIs if you want to be precise. Proper AI capable of creative thinking and unpredictability, backed up by the calculating power of powerful computer could easily beat any human in RTS by APM (actions per minute) alone. That's why I've begun to love TBSs more and more in recent times, as they bring both AI and human player around the same table with certain basic rules.



Data -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/23/2011 10:11:51 AM)

yap, tbs's "don't require hyper reflexes and Supermans mousehand" [:)]



Kayoz -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/23/2011 5:05:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brainsucker

well, we are not talking about "asking" the developer / designers to sit and play with us. We just ask a AI mod so the community can evolve by their own. What the designers do just make a game, make the AI mod-able, make an adequate AI, then let the community to enhance the AI.

It won't cost a lot of budget. With the up to date AI (that created by the community), the players will play longer (it is even better if the game has PvP feature, but well...). The designer just need to throw new Expansions periodically (new feature, new idea, and new AI mod), and the game will evolve by itself in the market.


Moddable AI? Please point to 5 games which have AIs that can be modded. Your assertion is that it is relatively low-cost and easy to do - so surely you can provide examples of it in mainstream games? Please cite your sources - 5 will do.



Sithuk -> RE: I stop playing for now (6/23/2011 5:43:32 PM)

I'm surprised the Civ 4 better BUG AI hasn't been mentioned:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=354019

Extensive community improvements have been made to the Civ 4 Beyond the Sword (BTS) latest official AI. Have a look at the Better BAT AI too (a merger of Better BUG AI with other mod improvements):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=421897



TGS -> RE: I stop playing for now (7/10/2011 9:29:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: J HG T

AI in todays games aren't truly AIs if you want to be precise. Proper AI capable of creative thinking and unpredictability, backed up by the calculating power of powerful computer could easily beat any human in RTS by APM (actions per minute) alone. That's why I've begun to love TBSs more and more in recent times, as they bring both AI and human player around the same table with certain basic rules.



Sorry I haven't responded until now I haven't been paying much attention to forums the last couple weeks. As much as I want to agree with you the fact of the matter is that you are talking about a specific form of AI and a specific form of game. If you are talking a tactical game ranging from Chess to say StarCraft you are right you can easily throw enough power behind it and make an AI that cannot be beaten but that isn't to say the AI still can't be predicted. You can predict something and still lose to it.

But when you mention "APM" I think games like Starcraft which essentially get broken down into a measurable APM which can largely define how "good" a player is but that concept does not actually translate into larger more epic games such as the 4x strategy games. In fact I often have the arguement with people that games like starcraft are not actually RTS games so much as RTT games (real time tactics) because they are largely about tactical battles and conflicts with an immediate fast paced strategic overlay. While the overlay is strategic any game that lasts 5-30 minutes average is not much of a strategy because you aren't managing an entire theater of war or a large scale conflict you are managing a bunch of micro-battles and it's about small numbers of units which also denotes more tactics imo. Think squad vs regiment. Squads are roughly 12 soldiers or units where a Regiment is thousands.

Now I've realized I'm kind of ranting so I'm going to finish my point by saying that in large scale games you can have much wilder variations in AI behavior but at the same time you also have to have them somewhat limited due to the processing power of machines and them simply not being able to devote that much to AI routines which leads them doing predictable things. That's why humans will always be superior opponents because humans don't just take raw data and employ strategies/decisions based on that data. Quite frankly humans make things fun. So forgive me if I've ranted a bit I'm tired but I did want to respond to this because I find this game very intriguing and I would love to see what it would be like with other players.



adecoy95 -> RE: I stop playing for now (7/10/2011 6:51:16 PM)

i liked that they gave the shakturi a "cheat" or sorts with the income bonus on their home world, it made them somewhat more dangerous, but it should not have been able to be captured and used by the player.

i like difficulty settings that allow the ai to cheat, as long as they are not able to do things that should be impossible (company of heroes ai used to annoy me cause they did not suffer from fog of war, so their artillery always had max range).

its not exactly elegant, to use cheating ai, but its probably the easiest way to inject a fast challenge into the game. giving the ai more planets just does not do it for me, its just another way the player can obtain the ai cheat bonuses.



TGS -> RE: I stop playing for now (7/10/2011 9:25:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: adecoy95

i liked that they gave the shakturi a "cheat" or sorts with the income bonus on their home world, it made them somewhat more dangerous, but it should not have been able to be captured and used by the player.

i like difficulty settings that allow the ai to cheat, as long as they are not able to do things that should be impossible (company of heroes ai used to annoy me cause they did not suffer from fog of war, so their artillery always had max range).

its not exactly elegant, to use cheating ai, but its probably the easiest way to inject a fast challenge into the game. giving the ai more planets just does not do it for me, its just another way the player can obtain the ai cheat bonuses.



Oh man I hate that. There are some games that are notorious for that. I know one in particular that I won't mention because otherwise it's a good game but I would often build secret bases off the beaten path fully equipped with stealth enhancements and really in a place that you'd only stumble upon it if you knew to look there and lone behold "randomly lol" AI scouts would end up visiting it even though they couldn't possibly know it was there and if they were players they wouldn't.

It's an annoying tactic some developers use to essentially give the AI/NPC's/Mobs etc a separate ruleset to players and for the most part players do not like it. The reason a lot of blizzard's games are so insanely successful is due to the fact that for the most part the units/NPC's/Mobs all use abilities very similar to that which the player can obtain in some cases they are identical with exception to it scaling up higher for the mobs because they are meant to be tougher than the average player. Imo that concept is what makes a lot of games fun because it simulates similarities between players and AI and in some cases if done right it can almost fool the player into not knowing what's a player and whats an AI. Some first person shooters are really bad about that as well for example AI snipers that seem to magically be able to headshot you from insane distances while you're moving without missing a single shot before.



MartialDoctor -> RE: I stop playing for now (7/11/2011 11:07:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brainsucker

well, we are not talking about "asking" the developer / designers to sit and play with us. We just ask a AI mod so the community can evolve by their own. What the designers do just make a game, make the AI mod-able, make an adequate AI, then let the community to enhance the AI.

It won't cost a lot of budget. With the up to date AI (that created by the community), the players will play longer (it is even better if the game has PvP feature, but well...). The designer just need to throw new Expansions periodically (new feature, new idea, and new AI mod), and the game will evolve by itself in the market.


Moddable AI? Please point to 5 games which have AIs that can be modded. Your assertion is that it is relatively low-cost and easy to do - so surely you can provide examples of it in mainstream games? Please cite your sources - 5 will do.


I don't play enough games to know of more, but I can point out three right off the top of my head:

Shogun 2 Total War (Universal AI Mod, Darthmod)
Rome Total War (Europa Barbororum had some modifications that affected AI)
Civ 4 (Fall from Heaven 2 mod was completely different from the original Civ IV and the AI not only handled the spells and new units effectively but was much more challenging than the AI from the original game; I believe there was also an AI enhancement mod but never played it)



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