Minesweeping TF's (Full Version)

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Rekm41 -> Minesweeping TF's (6/22/2011 11:17:01 AM)

As a JFB what are good ships for minesweeping operations. Say I wanted to clear Hong Kong Harbor.



Terminus -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/22/2011 11:52:28 AM)

Well, anything that says "minesweeper" on the box is probably a good bet.



kjnoel -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/22/2011 1:58:09 PM)

You only have the choice of AMc or DMS at the beginning (if I remember correctly). AMc are slow, have a short range and only clear mines in the hex they are in. The DMS however will also attempt to clear mines in an adjacent hex.... I found this out the hard way by parking them next to Batavia just before I assaulted it, they walzed in and got blown away by the CD guns.....not fun.

I think you can convert some xAKLs as well but that takes time.



jeffk3510 -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/22/2011 2:37:01 PM)

Any ship will work...once.  [:D]



inqistor -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/22/2011 8:50:53 PM)

It seems that ANY ship with Depth Charges can destroy mines, but you should use dedicated ships, probably AM, but for Hong Kong AMc should be able to reach it.



Puhis -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/22/2011 8:56:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

Any ship will work...once.  [:D]


Battleships might work more than once... [;)]



Rekm41 -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/23/2011 1:49:52 AM)

Thanks guys I think I might stay away from the any ship ideas though [;)][;)]



JWE -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/23/2011 3:53:20 PM)

Terminus had the right idea. The only ships that can sweep mines are .. minesweepers.
AM - minesweeper
DMS - destroyer minesweeper
YMS - district minesweeper
AMc - coastal minesweeper
YMS and AMc will sweep their own hex, only. AM and DMS will sweep surrounding hexes. YMS and AMc are used by the AI to form local MS TFs to clean up their local port, if they are available in the port ship list. They can be used by a human player, but AM or DMS are more efficient.

Depth charges have absolutely nothing to do with mines. You would be well advised to ignore that.



fodder -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 10:09:15 AM)

The manual says that

DD
DE
TB
E
PG
PF
KV
PC
PB
ML
DMS
AM
YMS

Can all mine sweep.

YMS
YP
HDML
AMc

Can all local mine sweep.

Or have this been changed.



Sredni -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 11:45:51 AM)

Well DD's can definitely sweep mines, and I'm pretty sure they'll do it even when not in minesweeping taskforces. I imagine it's just a matter of how well they do it compared to dedicated minesweeping ships, or perhaps how likely they might be to hit mines while doing the sweeping.

I'd definately want to use DMS or AM's for minesweeping as my first choice, but if they weren't available I wouldn't hesitate to use destroyers.



Terminus -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 11:45:59 AM)

That's not what it says. It says they can be put into minesweeping task forces.

If you put a destroyer in a carrier task force, it doesn't gain the ability to launch air strikes either.



Sredni -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 11:49:36 AM)

An easy way to see for allies. First turn have the DD's in manilla sortie out to sweep the mines the japanese place at bataan. They sweep mines just fine though I can't remember if I tested them as a minesweeping TF or just as a surface combat TF. I do remember that it wasn't unlikely for a destroyer to hit a mine while sweeping.



jeffk3510 -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 2:51:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

That's not what it says. It says they can be put into minesweeping task forces.

If you put a destroyer in a carrier task force, it doesn't gain the ability to launch air strikes either.


I spit my coffee ALL over my pants this morning. Hahaha! [:D][:D]



Rob Brennan UK -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 3:54:34 PM)

and there I was using my AM's as Armed Merchantmen for convoy escorts, never knew they could sweep mines ! I still learn things every week from this forum [&o] [&o]



JWE -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 6:20:56 PM)

Yep. Is true. Even checked the latest source for the latest beta. Don't know why people think 'other' ship types can sweep mines. Maybe misinterpretation, maybe whatever. But the ONLY types that can sweep mines are:
AM - minesweeper
DMS - destroyer minesweeper
YMS - district minesweeper
AMc - coastal minesweeper
That's it. That's what the code looks for. And that's ONLY what the code looks for. i.e., other types need not apply. i.e., nothing else will do. i.e., that's it and there ain't no more. As Terminus notes, other types can be put into a minesweeping TF, but they are there to protect the minesweepers from those nasty SAGs, subs, CD guns, and such. But they DON'T sweep. The ONLY ships the game code recognizes as able to sweep mines are AM, DMS, YMS, AMc.

As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end, amen.

[ed] no hit on you Rob, you just happened to be the last post. Lucky you, yeah? [;)]



witpqs -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 6:42:50 PM)

quote:

Don't know why people think 'other' ship types can sweep mines.


There must be some ad hoc type type code that's in there (and that seems appropriate too), because a couple of turns ago in my PBM with Treespider a PC escorting a bunch of xAKs swept a mine in a newly located mine field. Even better, nothing got hit by mines! Non-mine sweeping types sweep mines in the game is really rare from what I've seen. We're using the latest Beta, BTW.



Sardaukar -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 7:26:15 PM)

I have seen the message "DD Thisandthat destroys 1 mine" too. I always thought it was related to ships ability to destroy spotted floating mines (also known as drifting contact mines as opposed to moored ones) by smaller guns (I think 20mm was preferred historically).



JWE -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 7:44:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
There must be some ad hoc type type code that's in there (and that seems appropriate too), because a couple of turns ago in my PBM with Treespider a PC escorting a bunch of xAKs swept a mine in a newly located mine field. Even better, nothing got hit by mines! Non-mine sweeping types sweep mines in the game is really rare from what I've seen. We're using the latest Beta, BTW.

There's no AEstereggs in this part of the code. It is what it is. Your PC didn't sweep any mines. May have found some, but didn't sweep them. Couldn't have because it's not a minesweeper. Density of the minefield matters. Thin one, you you'll likely not get hit. Minefields degrade over time. So if you don't get hit and and there's fewer mines, it's likely degradation. There's lots of reasons why you may see what you see, but the defininive, dispositive, response is ONLY the 4 class types mentioned above can sweep mines.

That's about as succint as I can make it. Code don't care about opinions, it does what it is told to do. And it is told to ONLY consider AM, DMS, YMS, AMc as minesweepers. Sorry.

[ed] gonna have to leave this, now. Said what needed to be said.



witpqs -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 7:58:47 PM)

I reported an observation. Period.



witpqs -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 8:06:07 PM)

I went back and found the combat report:
quote:


TF 393 encounters mine field at Umnak Island (169,51)

Allied Ships
PC Cyane



1 mine cleared

That was a cargo TF.

Here is one from a few turns earlier for a transport TF (where a ship was actually hit):
quote:


TF 120 encounters mine field at Kodiak (181,42)

Allied Ships
APD Lawrence, Mine hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
APD King



4 mines cleared


So whatever it is, there it is.



JWE -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 9:22:29 PM)

Whatever, pal. Can't help ya. The little text things that show up in the little reports are just little text things that show up in the little reports. Understand people will go about their business and do what they do regardless of what the designers say. Design says this is how it is. You may, of course do whatever you please.[;)]



Sredni -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/24/2011 11:55:01 PM)

how weird, I've thought all this time that destroyers were minesweeper capable because of the swarm fleeing manilla through the sub laid minefield at bataan gets swept by the destroyers passing through. Did some testing and got this report consistently:

TF 219 encounters mine field at Bataan (78,77)

Allied Ships
DD Pope
DD Pillsbury
DD Peary
DD John D. Ford



6 mines cleared

I got 4-6 mines "swept" each day, I wonder if that's FOW where the game just tells you a small number of mines were swept even if none are just because a minesweeping TF is in the hex. I don't think it would correspond with natural decay, mostly cause I don't think the minefield placed at bataan by the japanese subs could have very many mines, not enough to rate 6 lost to attrition per day. But that's just a guess.

Does 4 ships sweeping 4-6 mines sound about right? Would 4 AM's sweep many more... I'll test that I guess.

Edit: Tested with 4 AM's from manilla instead of 4 DD's, swept way more. 17 when they entered the hex, and then 24. After which they were promptly torpedoed by some betties to put an end to that test heh. But the hex showed as cleared after that first day. If I wanted to test whether the DD's would clear the hex I'd have to leave them there a week to get the same number "cleared" and alas I don't think the betties and nells would leave them alive that long.


But I also discovered that destroyers can't form a minesweeper TF if there are no minesweepers in the hex. Put some destroyers in a hex by themselves and you can't make a minesweeper TF with them. Add an AM to the port and you can form a minesweeper TF and just leave the AM in port. So that says to me that DD's arn't supposed to be all by their lonesome in a minesweeper TF.

So now after this thread I find myself wondering if we're gaming the system by making DD minesweeping TF's, do a certain number of mines get swept automatically just cause a TF is in the hex, or are the reports we see fog of war?



RalfBHV -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/25/2011 12:18:55 AM)

But, none minesweepers have a higher chance to hit by mine.



Rainer -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/25/2011 12:23:53 AM)

I feel it's rather simple.

1. What JWE told us (what ships can sweep mines).
2. What the manual told us (what ships can exist in a Mine Sweeping TF).
3. What witpq and sredni told us (Destroyers - and certain other smaller warships - when they locate a mine, will destroy the mine if possible - but that is NOT Mine Sweeping).

So what's that noise all about?




SqzMyLemon -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/25/2011 12:24:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nessaja

But, none minesweepers have a higher chance to hit by mine.


My experience with including DD's in minesweeping TF's has not been good. In an effort to protect the valuable minesweepers from submarine threat I started including DD's as escort, my efforts were rewarded more often than not with a sunk DD due to hitting a mine. It didn't matter if the minefield consisted of 10 or 300 mines, the DD's almost always hit one. IMHO...avoid using DD's or any other valuable escorts that can't sweep mines themselves.



oldman45 -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/25/2011 2:59:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

I feel it's rather simple.

1. What JWE told us (what ships can sweep mines).
2. What the manual told us (what ships can exist in a Mine Sweeping TF).
3. What witpq and sredni told us (Destroyers - and certain other smaller warships - when they locate a mine, will destroy the mine if possible - but that is NOT Mine Sweeping).

So what's that noise all about?




Stop trying to bring logic to a thread [;)]



Rainer -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/25/2011 5:01:28 AM)

quote:

Stop trying to bring logic to a thread


I'm sorry. Forgot for a moment where I am [;)]



inqistor -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/25/2011 7:50:06 AM)

I think there is different report when non-minesweeper "destroys" mine, and minesweeper "sweeps", or "widen channel through minefield" (actually I think, that non-minesweepers can not "widen channel"). It would be worth testing, if non-sweepers actually use any ammo during operation.

That is how it worked since WITP, but what were you guys expecting from "developers" who had not played the game, since its release?


quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
My experience with including DD's in minesweeping TF's has not been good. In an effort to protect the valuable minesweepers from submarine threat I started including DD's as escort, my efforts were rewarded more often than not with a sunk DD due to hitting a mine. It didn't matter if the minefield consisted of 10 or 300 mines, the DD's almost always hit one. IMHO...avoid using DD's or any other valuable escorts that can't sweep mines themselves.

AM ships tend to have some DCs, also some AMc's are sometimes armed with them. You can safely make Minesweeping TF with only minesweepers. Just find appropriate ships.



Rainer -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/25/2011 3:42:44 PM)

quote:

That is how it worked since WITP, but what were you guys expecting from "developers" who had not played the game, since its release?



Green button, well deserved.



dr.hal -> RE: Minesweeping TF's (6/26/2011 2:23:23 PM)

In the USN, all warships have a "mine detail" and it is stationed when in a suspected mine area. This is NOT to sweep, as you need special gear to do that (thus in the game only certain ships are designated mine "sweepers") but to clear mines. How is this done? Simple, a spotter and a rifleman are stationed on the bow and shoot floating mines. I'm not kidding about this, we had such a detail on both the DLG (later CG) and DDG I was stationed on. Thus I think the fact that DDs in the game "sweep" one or two mines is a reflection of the fact that any ship can station spotters and detonate mines, hopefully at a safe distance!



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