what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (Full Version)

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Insano -> what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (6/25/2011 4:54:13 PM)

Hi just a historical question since I don't know anything about the Dutch navy. What were the 4 submarines doing in the Gulf of Siam on Dec 7? Is this historically accurate? I have to assume it is with this dev crew. It just looks like they were operating quite a ways from Dutch territorial waters. Did they suspect something was going to happen? Were they working with the British? Why didn't the British have any of their own subs out as scouts? I'm sure this will be one of those interesting stories within the story. Thanks in advance!



TulliusDetritus -> RE: what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (6/25/2011 5:11:51 PM)

I'm pretty certain someone will give you the REAL answer (a lot of knowledge on these forums) [:)]

A guess: yes, they were working together (both British and Dutch colonies were threatened by the same enemy, Japan). And given that the British did not have any submarine in the area, they relied on the Dutch subs.



Shellshock -> RE: what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (6/25/2011 5:42:43 PM)

Admiral Sir Tom Phillipsat Singapore, ordered the Dutch boats to form a line across the mouth of the gulf and stay out of the way of his powerful Force Z until the big guns of the battle cruiser Repulse and battleship Prince of Wales had hopefully destroyed the Japanese transports invading upper Malaya. These Dutch submarines had been sent to Malayan waters BEFORE the outbreak of war as a preemptive measure. Then assuming the success of Force Z starting at dawn on 11 December the submarines were to move in and mop up the remains of the invasion fleet. Obviously it didn't work out that way, but the submarines attacked Japanese shipping anyway.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (6/26/2011 7:28:54 AM)

I have always been surprised that given that England was such a powerful and traditionally strong navy that they did not put more effort and resources into their submarine branch.
If they could of had about 2 dozen boats at the outset of hostilities and then committed 2 dozen more in the first few months I wonder if the war would have ended any sooner and with fewer casualties.



Chris21wen -> RE: what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (6/26/2011 8:06:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I have always been surprised that given that England was such a powerful and traditionally strong navy that they did not put more effort and resources into their submarine branch.
If they could of had about 2 dozen boats at the outset of hostilities and then committed 2 dozen more in the first few months I wonder if the war would have ended any sooner and with fewer casualties.



It was unfair, don't you know old chap[;)] Not to meantion a certain Mr Hitler.



warspite1 -> RE: what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (6/26/2011 8:43:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I have always been surprised that given that England was such a powerful and traditionally strong navy that they did not put more effort and resources into their submarine branch.
If they could of had about 2 dozen boats at the outset of hostilities and then committed 2 dozen more in the first few months I wonder if the war would have ended any sooner and with fewer casualties.

Warspite1

Fallschirmjager, a couple of points re your post:

- The British Royal Navy (RN) was - on paper - the largest navy at the start of WWII. However, the numbers of BB's/BC's and CV's in particular, masks an inescapable truth; a lack of money in the inter-war years meant that the RN was in no way as strong as simple numbers indicate. This problem affected the submarine service just as much as the surface fleet.

- Despite this, the RN's submarine service was the same size as the Kriegsmarine's in 1939 and - despite being smaller than the Japanese and Italian sub fleets - was to prove far more effective.

- I assume you mean December 7th as the start of hostilities rather than September 3rd? If so, then I think that given the lack of ASW capability of the IJN then such a policy may have paid dividends, however there was:

a) a general mis-reading of the threat that Japan posed by the politicians - how else do you explain no tanks, Spitfires or even Hurricanes (iirc) in Malaya and the sending to that colony of Force Z [:(]
b) a desperate need for subs in the Mediterranean, even if that threat had been taken seriously. 24 (and ultimately 48) boats in the Pacific would have been beyond the RN's capability at that time.
c) even if possible, the subs would have needed to have caused sufficient problems for the Japanese to stop - or at least seriously delay - the conquest of Malaya/Singapore and the NEI. Even with hindsight, is that a realistic expectation? I don't know (although I suspect not), but its an interesting what if.



Shellshock -> RE: what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (6/26/2011 3:07:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I have always been surprised that given that England was such a powerful and traditionally strong navy that they did not put more effort and resources into their submarine branch.
If they could of had about 2 dozen boats at the outset of hostilities and then committed 2 dozen more in the first few months I wonder if the war would have ended any sooner and with fewer casualties.


Given the Royal Navy's dismissive attitude to it's submarine arm and the fact that the inter-war years were dominated by economic retrenchment for the RN it's surprising they built as many submarines as they did. Such was the faith in Asdic at the time that British submarines were regarded by the surface fleet chiefly as 'clockwork mice' to train their fleet destroyers in submarine detection. Torpedo and gun fire control were neglected. Submarine careers were considered a dead-end for ambitious officers. Britain began the war short in escort vessels too, which seems shocking considering the harrowing experience of the First World War.



Insano -> RE: what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (6/26/2011 7:18:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

... These Dutch submarines had been sent to Malayan waters BEFORE the outbreak of war as a preemptive measure. ...


This is the part that is interesting to me. It seems that the Dutch and British suspected the start of hostilities was imminent. When were the troop convoys sighted? Or were they already aware of the convoys when they were loading up at Saigon or wherever they came from? There wasn't enough time to send the Dutch boats there unless the convoys steamed all the way from Japan. I would be curious about how long they were on station there before Dec 7.



Shellshock -> RE: what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (6/26/2011 8:11:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Insano This is the part that is interesting to me. It seems that the Dutch and British suspected the start of hostilities was imminent. When were the troop convoys sighted? Or were they already aware of the convoys when they were loading up at Saigon or wherever they came from? There wasn't enough time to send the Dutch boats there unless the convoys steamed all the way from Japan. I would be curious about how long they were on station there before Dec 7.


Everyone suspected hostilities were imminent. That's why the Prince of Wales and Repulse were there (and they originally were to have been backed by a carrier.) That's why artillery reinforcements were being sent in an convoy guarded by the cruiser Pensacola to the Philippines. That's why the cruisers Houston and Boise don't begin the game in Manila but further south out of aerial attack range. Dutch submarines were already based in Singapore in accordance with plans for Dutch co operation in the event of war with Japan. British, Dutch, and U.S. air reconnaissance over the South China Sea was actually begun on November 29th 1941 in accordance with plans previously made. Giving the deteriorating relations with Japan everyone suspected war was coming. It was just a matter of where and when and let Japan deliver the first blow.




Jaroen -> RE: what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (6/26/2011 9:03:45 PM)

In answer to the OP:
Perhaps the answer is so obvious it is overseen. The Dutch submarines were operating very close to 'home' territories. The Dutch Indies included Sumatra! Right around the corner of Singapore and the Gulf of Siam. Protecting those colonial territories by naval presence was actually of greater validity than having those boats around in the North Sea.

Check this website for more info on the Dutch submarine service: http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/

Jaroen.



JeffroK -> RE: what are Dutch subs doing in Gulf of Siam at scenario start? (6/27/2011 9:27:26 AM)

As the British & Dutch were Allies, you know since May 1940, any cooperation would be normal.

Add Borneo (at least Kalimantan) to Dutch possesions so any SS of that coast would be good admiralship.



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