War in the West (Full Version)

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GARY L -> War in the West (6/27/2011 7:53:30 PM)

Hi

How is this coming along?

Will it have it's own Forum soon?



Joel Billings -> RE: War in the West (6/27/2011 8:13:23 PM)

It's coming along, but is far from having it's own forum. Still in early data/design stages.



GARY L -> RE: War in the West (6/27/2011 8:15:12 PM)

Thanks Joel



ETF -> RE: War in the West (6/28/2011 12:24:26 AM)

Stay tuned for another few years I would imagine :)



delatbabel -> RE: War in the West (6/28/2011 1:57:37 PM)

I wouldn't bother. Despite what you see in Hollywood movies, the Western Front was just a sideshow. Nice of Mr Harris and crew to knock the German production about, and good that they eventually staged a landing to act as a bit of a distraction, but the real war was fought at the gates of Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kharkov, Kursk, Prokhorovka, etc. [;)]



Panama -> RE: War in the West (6/28/2011 2:31:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

I wouldn't bother. Despite what you see in Hollywood movies, the Western Front was just a sideshow. Nice of Mr Harris and crew to knock the German production about, and good that they eventually staged a landing to act as a bit of a distraction, but the real war was fought at the gates of Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kharkov, Kursk, Prokhorovka, etc. [;)]


[:D][:D][:D]

+1



Tarhunnas -> RE: War in the West (6/28/2011 3:23:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

I wouldn't bother. Despite what you see in Hollywood movies, the Western Front was just a sideshow. Nice of Mr Harris and crew to knock the German production about, and good that they eventually staged a landing to act as a bit of a distraction, but the real war was fought at the gates of Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kharkov, Kursk, Prokhorovka, etc. [;)]


Exactly! Like Spain in the Napoleonic wars, something of a backyard thing while the really interesting stuff is happening somewhere else.



Harrybanana -> RE: War in the West (6/28/2011 4:51:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

I wouldn't bother. Despite what you see in Hollywood movies, the Western Front was just a sideshow. Nice of Mr Harris and crew to knock the German production about, and good that they eventually staged a landing to act as a bit of a distraction, but the real war was fought at the gates of Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kharkov, Kursk, Prokhorovka, etc. [;)]


Exactly! Like Spain in the Napoleonic wars, something of a backyard thing while the really interesting stuff is happening somewhere else.



Without question the most important theatre in the the War in Europe was Eastern Europe and it was in Russia that the outcome of the War was primarily decided. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Western Europe (and I include North Africa here) was a "side show" or a "backyard thing." Indeed for the first 22 months of the War (ie roughly 1/3rd of the entire War) it was the "front yard" and the "only show". Important battles (albeit often on a smaller scale) were fought in the West as well. Had the Axis conquered England or the Middle East oil fields or won the Battle of the Atlantic the consequences would have been felt in Russia and elsewhere.

As for "interesting stuff" (as opposed to "important stuff") I would argue that the War in the West was more interesting as the players are given more strategic choices. For the Axis you have to decide whether or not to invade Norway, or England, or Spain, or Malta, etc. For the Allies, of course, you have to decide where and when to invade.

Of course, you may have simply been talking about the time period that 2by3 is going to cover with it's War in the West game and not the entire War in the West, which I suppose are different things. Even so, I for one am looking forward to the game.




colberki -> RE: War in the West (6/28/2011 5:45:00 PM)

Yes, I am ready to pre-order WITW![:D]



Zakhal -> RE: War in the West (6/28/2011 9:51:49 PM)

Just france/italy or north africa too? That would be full of awesome.



Joel Billings -> RE: War in the West (6/28/2011 11:19:03 PM)

We're planning on several different games that will together cover the entire War in the West. The first is 43-45 Italy/France, the next will probably be Norway/France/Med (with Italy) in 1940, with another game being the Med 41 to mid-43 (by Med I mean the area surrounding the land areas surrounding the Med). That's the current plan anyway. The 1940 and 41-43 games will both include a major new naval addition to the WitE game system. It will not be WitP (not at that level of detail), but it will be a fully designed naval system to work in conjunction with the WitE rules.



Michael T -> RE: War in the West (6/28/2011 11:50:55 PM)

Sounds good, thank you Joel.



Scook_99 -> RE: War in the West (6/29/2011 12:00:19 AM)

A full working naval system too? Cool! Hrmmmm, will this lead to one day a strategic game encompassing all of Europe done at division/regimental scale? Whew, just the thought of doing a turn once everyone is in play gives me the chills.



Zakhal -> RE: War in the West (6/29/2011 12:34:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scook_99

A full working naval system too? Cool! Hrmmmm, will this lead to one day a strategic game encompassing all of Europe done at division/regimental scale? Whew, just the thought of doing a turn once everyone is in play gives me the chills.

I think Ill just start with 1940 game and then continue by playing three games together day-by-day aka war in the east 1941, war in the med 1941 (if lost continue with italy/france 43-) and war in the pacific 1941.

Im allready doing it with WITE. I play one week WITE and then seven days of WITP (same dates). I kind of have a house rule that if axis win either campaign they win the whole war.



Wild -> RE: War in the West (6/29/2011 12:48:33 AM)

I believe the plan is to join these games together (except WitP) to make one game War in Europe which there is talk of having control over your production.

I can't wait!!



Panama -> RE: War in the West (6/29/2011 1:25:50 AM)

One word. Europa.

About as many parts too.



Gargoil -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 4:44:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

I believe the plan is to join these games together (except WitP) to make one game War in Europe which there is talk of having control over your production.

I can't wait!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

One word. Europa.

About as many parts too.


SPI produced the War in the East cardboard wargame back in the 70's. It also produced War in the West and a compliation - War In Europe. War in Europe has enjoyed some success as a Vassel game. Europa was even more ambitous, but I lost track of it after awhile.

I played War in Europe extensive in my wargaming club. Great game. GG and Matrix can really put themselves as the leader and greatest computer wargame producers ever by put that together. I think your going to be able to get a lot of crossover customers from the HOI and WIF fans out there.



gradenko2k -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 5:50:51 PM)

If WITE is any indication, the Allied Air Force in the 43-45 Italy/France game is going to bomb the bejesus out of the Luftwaffe.

Although on that note, I wonder if the Allied player is going to be expected to manage the strategic bombing campaign as well, since ostensibly that's what the Bomb City mission is for as far as taking out factories are concerned.



heliodorus04 -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 6:02:41 PM)

I'm going to take one of my big guns out of its carrying case and take a shot at Matrix:

Given how poorly the actual combat mechanics of War in the East, and how utterly pointless the so-called "Strategic Decisions" available to the Germans are, there's simply no way in hell I'll buy a War in the West product.

Just as Germany is bound to its winter 1941 demise, France will be bound to its no-reserves charge into Belgium.

But wait, maybe I'm wrong and France will be given complete freedom of command and control exactly as the Soviets are in 1941. In that case, Germany players can re-create the stalemate of Verdun as France players erect a perfect grid of brigades forward soaking up German MPs and combined stacks of French armor and infantry creating Schwerpunkts.

What's that? There will be a Norway campaign? Well, with the British and French having to ship in and ship out divisions as their historical counterpart does, that should be a gripping campaign as you invade Narvik only to have to withdraw the troops 4 weeks later. How about a Dutch campaign where the only counter the Dutch get to move is the royal family? Maybe Denmark can hold out until 50 soldiers are killed!

Will a US invasion be required on June 6, 1944? Will US Supply be modeled perfectly so that every division from Caan to St. Lo has exactly enough to launch full-frontal attacks?

Will an Allied player ever even need to launch Market Garden when you can just grind down German infantry turn after turn all across the front? What earthly point will there be for the Germans to do anything other than enact major forts along every major river from the Somme to the Elbe?

I get the impression from my time with Gary Grigsby games that his games start with a foregone conclusion about who will win and how, then he piles a bunch of ridiculous and unnecessary statistics into it covering the range of rifle grenades, the top armor for 79 Porsche turrets for Tiger IIs, and how many kettenkrads were produced in a given month from 43 to 45, he throws all that stuff in until his program is dripping with pointless calculations that overpower the mathematical dynamics of combined arms warfare, and calls it a game.

When it turns out to be 1-dimensional, and exploitable to the point of absurdity, someone quotes Glanz and says that's very realistic.




BletchleyGeek -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 6:23:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I'm going to take one of my big guns out of its carrying case and take a shot at Matrix:


Actually you're getting out the flamethrower, man.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I get the impression from my time with Gary Grigsby games that his games start with a foregone conclusion about who will win and how, then he piles a bunch of ridiculous and unnecessary statistics into it covering the range of rifle grenades, the top armor for 79 Porsche turrets for Tiger IIs, and how many kettenkrads were produced in a given month from 43 to 45, he throws all that stuff in until his program is dripping with pointless calculations that overpower the mathematical dynamics of combined arms warfare, and calls it a game.


If there are Püppchen in WiTW it will be an instant buy for many people:

[image]http://lemairesoft.sytes.net:1945/webfr/photo/char1/102017066.jpg[/image]

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
When it turns out to be 1-dimensional, and exploitable to the point of absurdity, someone quotes Glanz and says that's very realistic.


Here you're over-generalizing. And in general, you're assuming that WiTW will just be WiTE with a different map and OOB (and no First Winter). I think it'll be quite a different game, very much as WiTE will be much different from what it is now when WitW sees the light.



gradenko2k -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 6:24:35 PM)

Wow, heliodorus just took the "humorous observations from WITE that might apply to WITW" game to a whole new level. I just kidding with the whole air-war thing, I swear!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
And in general, you're assuming that WiTW will just be WiTE with a different map and OOB (and no First Winter). I think it'll be quite a different game, very much as WiTE will be much different from what it is now when WitW sees the light.

One thing I am looking forward to is how American / British operational doctrine will be represented, insofar as the Russians have their own 2:1 and higher-losses special rules for them.

AFAIK (and I'm sure herwin can correct me on this), the Western Allies had artillery going for them: Lots of it, and under the direct control of the guys actually at the front line.



heliodorus04 -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 6:36:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Wow, heliodorus just took the "humorous observations from WITE that might apply to WITW" game to a whole new level. I just kidding with the whole air-war thing, I swear!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
And in general, you're assuming that WiTW will just be WiTE with a different map and OOB (and no First Winter). I think it'll be quite a different game, very much as WiTE will be much different from what it is now when WitW sees the light.

One thing I am looking forward to is how American / British operational doctrine will be represented, insofar as the Russians have their own 2:1 and higher-losses special rules for them.

AFAIK (and I'm sure herwin can correct me on this), the Western Allies had artillery going for them: Lots of it, and under the direct control of the guys actually at the front line.

It wasn't the artillery so much as it was the number of rounds they had for it.
America invented the term "Recon by fire"



kirkgregerson -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 6:46:32 PM)

I think the vast discrepancy in the air was also something the plagued the Germans in so much as planning much of any large offensives. Only the weather being poor could save the Germans from ceaseless air attacks by roaming allied fighter-bombers.

The proximity fuse introduced by the US also was something that made their artillery much more effective.



Gargoil -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 6:54:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Just as Germany is bound to its winter 1941 demise, France will be bound to its no-reserves charge into Belgium.


If WitE did not have a first winter rule, I would not buy it. And the Germans are not doomed by it. On the contrary, without it there would be no chance of the Russians winning. I am sure that "Pre-War" settups will be frozen, but that is just starting locations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
But wait, maybe I'm wrong and France will be given complete freedom of command and control exactly as the Soviets are in 1941. In that case, Germany players can re-create the stalemate of Verdun as France players erect a perfect grid of brigades forward soaking up German MPs and combined stacks of French armor and infantry creating Schwerpunkts.


The entire Axis and Allied side will be given complete freedom of CC and Production. The only reason WitE doesn't allow this for the Germans is BECAUSE THERE IS A WAR IN THE WEST GOING ON that is represented abstactly with withdrawals and surrenders now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
What's that? There will be a Norway campaign? Well, with the British and French having to ship in and ship out divisions as their historical counterpart does, that should be a gripping campaign as you invade Narvik only to have to withdraw the troops 4 weeks later. How about a Dutch campaign where the only counter the Dutch get to move is the royal family? Maybe Denmark can hold out until 50 soldiers are killed!


Withdrawals will not be needed in a game that does not have units transfering to other parts of the world not represented on the map. Now if there are some units that go from Europe to the Pacific, they will have withdrawals.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Will a US invasion be required on June 6, 1944? Will US Supply be modeled perfectly so that every division from Caan to St. Lo has exactly enough to launch full-frontal attacks?

Plain silly - I am sure the Allied player will have full autonomy over such decisions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Will an Allied player ever even need to launch Market Garden when you can just grind down German infantry turn after turn all across the front? What earthly point will there be for the Germans to do anything other than enact major forts along every major river from the Somme to the Elbe?


Here I tend to agree with you. One of my criticizms of the current game is there is no incentive to play "honest". The Russians need more reason to hold the line where they can. The Germans pre-knowledge of the coming effects of the first winter is strange.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I get the impression from my time with Gary Grigsby games that his games start with a foregone conclusion about who will win and how, then he piles a bunch of ridiculous and unnecessary statistics into it covering the range of rifle grenades, the top armor for 79 Porsche turrets for Tiger IIs, and how many kettenkrads were produced in a given month from 43 to 45, he throws all that stuff in until his program is dripping with pointless calculations that overpower the mathematical dynamics of combined arms warfare, and calls it a game.

Lol. You should go into politics. Seriously, making these games are obviously a passion for Gary and his crew. I am sure there are ways they might have done better, but they certainly have done well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
When it turns out to be 1-dimensional, and exploitable to the point of absurdity, someone quotes Glanz and says that's very realistic.


Exploitable? I think there are a couple of things (addressed already) that need some tweaking. But you are taking one of the finest operations level wargames ever made, in its infancy, and throwing out the baby with the bathwater.





Redmarkus5 -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 8:17:11 PM)

He's right about the quoting Glantz thing though. There are some who attempt to silence any wayward comments with exactly that technique...



Redmarkus5 -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 8:20:02 PM)

Having said that, I see WW2 as an example of chaos theory in action. It is hard to assess the effect on the eastern front of 20 extra Axis divisions becoming available because the UK has been invaded and US entry into Europe is unlikely. Or the effects of the capture of the ME oil fields.

As long as the final product (Europa) allows us to explore those possibilities, while also delivering a convincing representation of operational level warfare (still a long way to go there) I will be very happy.



CarnageINC -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 11:17:33 PM)

I believe I have read somewhere from Joel or Helpless....sorry if I'm wrong here....stated that WitE and WitW were going to be integrated someday.  When this happens I believe it will make the WitW more feasble as a grand strategy game.  Allowing players to decide when and where divisions will go will add a whole new dimension to the series.  Second and third fronts will really get some action going and make for some hard decisions for players.  As far as WitW as a stand alone game....I'm on the fence.  Wait and see is the only course here IMO.



Q-Ball -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 11:32:42 PM)

I think WITP-AE, WITE, and WITW should all be combined in one massive, mind-bending engine.




heliodorus04 -> RE: War in the West (8/31/2011 11:35:55 PM)

Listen, and by this I mean NO offense to Matrix:
I'm sure if WitW and WitE are ever integrated (let alone WitP), I'm sure that would be a 3rd generation product (1st being War in Russia back in the day) that we'd get to pay for (and complain about [;)]) separately. 

My criticisms notwithstanding, let's not forget this may be the longest a PC game has ever kept my attention (Civ 1 being the all-time, keep a cup at your desk and pee in a bottle so you don't have to break from playing, winner).  And the possibilities for an integrated, grand strategy game are apparent to anyone who appreciates the data collection that goes into the title (data collection being differentiated in my mind from model execution, which is what I try to criticize).  I'd be keeping my eye on that title.

My dissatisfaction(s) with WitE are about potential that I think I see in that isn't being unlocked or isn't framed correctly (meaning: the way *I* think is 'funnest for me'). 

And sometimes I feel like I have to save the fun in the game from historians in the community, but that's meant as respectfully as possible.  My attitude reflects what I want from a game, not what I think of history.



CarnageINC -> RE: War in the West (9/1/2011 12:09:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I think WITP-AE, WITE, and WITW should all be combined in one massive, mind-bending engine.




WOOT! That's a massive game for sure [:D]



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