RE: Air Exploit? (Full Version)

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Nikademus -> RE: Air Exploit? (7/15/2011 5:08:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Nikademus: the figures you posted should be put into perspective, as only then will it be clear how the Luftwaffe performed when facing both Western Allied air forces and the VVS, which is needed if the losses the VVS could inflict are to be judged.


It was not my intention to compare the preformance of the Luftwaffe between the Eastern and Western Fronts. I was mainly interesting in comparing what the players are desrcribing in terms of successful airbase attacks vs. what both sides (Luftw and VVS) were recording on the ground/over their own airbases in 1942.

The information would seem to support the authors (Bergstrom and company) contention that airbase attacks in 1942 were not very effective and often costly to the attacker in the caes of the VVS. An interesting factoid is that in 1942 the VVS bomber force largely confined itself to night bombing and was largely absent from daylight sorties. The few times they did....such as when attempting to hit Luftwaffe airbases and/or support their ground forces, they got cut up badly by the Jagdwaffe. "If" players are able to ground down the Luftwaffe by a succession of continual daylight airbase attacks in 42 without suffering a level of attrition that even the VVS cannot afford...then i'd say there's a problem.





ComradeP -> RE: Air Exploit? (7/15/2011 5:50:39 PM)

Historical air field attacks tended to be (much) smaller in size than the missions we can launch in the game. Currently, even though more planes are participating than was historically normally the case, the result is still as if only a handful of planes are participating (low numbers of destroyed and damaged aircraft).

Air base bombing missions shouldn't be too deadly in terms of aircraft destroyed on the ground, but they should in my opinion at the least result in more damaged aircraft and more interceptors shot down in the air when the attacker sends a large number of aircraft (100+) over.



ComradeP -> RE: Air Exploit? (7/15/2011 11:56:46 PM)

I have absolutely no idea how or why, but my air base bombing mission results have gotten a lot better suddenly, whilst I haven't changed any settings. This is puzzling to say the least. I bombed 400 planes last turn, when I stopped because my own losses were at 81 for the turn (Soviet toal losses were at 555, excluding the ~200 planes that were destroyed during training missions).



davetheroad -> RE: Air Exploit? (7/16/2011 12:00:50 PM)

Maybe there should be a 'bug out' setting on the air doctrine screen?
When units are below a certain level they withdraw to the rear.
This takes place DURING the turn
Having to suffer for several days because command decisions are only made Tuesdays looks crazy to me!.

as it appears that, apart from the first turn or so, airfield attacks were not causing many casualties.
The 'problem' is the player will launch dozens of attacks on the same airbase which the historical command
would not do.

Introduce the law of diminishing returns and count the number of attacks
Applies from turn 2

attack 1 - normal, bombers which reach the target bomb
attack 2 - half the bombers reaching the target attempt to bomb
attack 3 - quarter of the bombers attempt to bomb
attack 4 - eighth of bombers etc etc
etc
etc

so you can burn all those resources and continue to attack but it will be a pointless exercise and just give you RSI!



davetheroad -> RE: Air Exploit? (7/19/2011 9:16:26 AM)

Got bored last night so did some internet delving plus tossed a few bones and raked about in some entrails

apparently the russian oil production went from 31 million tons in 1940 to 19.3 million tons in 45

they had great difficulty in producing high octane avgas, only about 25% of their avgas was suitable for modern planes

they relied heavily on lend lease for high octane stuff

on average from domestic/LL sources 0.55 million tons of high octane per year.

742.5 million litres

10,000 Yak9D flying ONE max range sortie consume 6.5 million litres

calculate calculate

114 sorties PER YEAR

You might have a 10,000 sized airforce but you certainly can't fly it all the time!

Question. how does the game handle AVGAS ?



Tarhunnas -> RE: Air Exploit? (7/19/2011 9:25:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: davetheroad

Got bored last night so did some internet delving plus tossed a few bones and raked about in some entrails

apparently the russian oil production went from 31 million tons in 1940 to 19.3 million tons in 45

they had great difficulty in producing high octane avgas, only about 25% of their avgas was suitable for modern planes

they relied heavily on lend lease for high octane stuff

on average from domestic/LL sources 0.55 million tons of high octane per year.

742.5 million litres

10,000 Yak9D flying ONE max range sortie consume 6.5 million litres

calculate calculate

114 sorties PER YEAR

You might have a 10,000 sized airforce but you certainly can't fly it all the time!

Question. how does the game handle AVGAS ?


Good point and interesting data! You would have to add lend lease to that, have no Idea of the amount, but I think I have it in a book somewhere, I'll check when I find it.



Mehring -> RE: Air Exploit? (7/19/2011 9:36:25 AM)

quote:

Question. how does the game handle AVGAS ?

It doesn't AFAIKS, and its another aspect of logistics that needs modelling.



davetheroad -> RE: Air Exploit? (7/19/2011 9:55:49 AM)

LL avgas is included

LL delivered about 1.2? million tons of avgas for the war.

I don't have the annual delivery figures

My figures are very approximate but it is interesting that this subject ties in well with the front wide offensive thread.

All the data should be out there somewhere

The western allies experience might be helpful as well as a plane fuel tank is a plane fuel tank. russian planes don't have higher miles per gallon ratings.



ComradeP -> RE: Air Exploit? (7/21/2011 5:31:19 PM)

It seems I have to retract my statement regarding casualties from air base attacks, as I'm now able to destroy 400-500 planes on the ground/in the air over the air fields per turn. I still don't know why I suddenly started to get better results, maybe I ran into some kind of glitch. The "right click" way to launch the mission seems to cause more casualties than the "shift right click and select air groups" way. Damaged aircraft still seem a bit low, but the casualties seem reasonable.

Results of the air campaign thus far at the end of turn 15.


[image]local://upfiles/32881/D7A3A2D524044272ADB0099880E24ABF.jpg[/image]



Mehring -> RE: Air Exploit? (7/21/2011 6:08:34 PM)

There ya go. I'm not sure the shift right click has so much to do with it, I always use that. I guess this system is full of vagueries as you can't see the dice rolls or even know what rolls are being made, a cause of much frustration but also part of it's attraction.



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