naval units damage (Full Version)

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bo -> naval units damage (6/30/2011 8:05:05 PM)

Sorry for my questions gentlemen, when I attack a port under the port attack option some of the outcomes are damaged. What does damage mean, I looked up damage in the rule book and in the index files but so far cant find any reference to what damage does to units, I understand what aborted means but I don't see anything on the unit counter in the wif computer game that indicates that anything happened. What happens in the board game when a naval unit is damaged? Is it turned over and how is it repaired?

Bo



Orm -> RE: naval units damage (6/30/2011 8:16:23 PM)

This is the relevant rules regarding damaged naval units. If anything remains unclear please ask and I will try to clarify things.

"The unit is damaged. Put a damage marker on the unit. If the unit is already damaged, it (and any cargo on it)
is destroyed instead. A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor
is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4). At the
end of combat in this sea area (not each round), all damaged units must abort."

"Put damaged naval units that successfully abort into the repair pool. Put any cargo on a damaged TRS in the
production pool to arrive as a reinforcement in the next turn."

And the repair damage rule:

"All other naval units have two costs shown in their unit data. The first number is the build points it costs to
put the unit on its first production cycle. [Clarification. You are not required to control a port to start naval
production - Feb. 16, 1998.] It is also the cost to repair the unit. The second number is the cost to put the unit on its
second production cycle.
All naval units take 2 turns to repair. Convoy points don’t get damaged, so you won’t ever repair them."



Sewerlobster -> RE: naval units damage (6/30/2011 8:16:29 PM)

Whoops, too slow -- what he said.

{original text deleted as it was just a repeat of what Orm posted just before me}



bo -> RE: naval units damage (6/30/2011 8:52:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

This is the relevant rules regarding damaged naval units. If anything remains unclear please ask and I will try to clarify things.

"The unit is damaged. Put a damage marker on the unit. If the unit is already damaged, it (and any cargo on it)
is destroyed instead. A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor
is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4). At the
end of combat in this sea area (not each round), all damaged units must abort."

"Put damaged naval units that successfully abort into the repair pool. Put any cargo on a damaged TRS in the
production pool to arrive as a reinforcement in the next turn."

And the repair damage rule:

"All other naval units have two costs shown in their unit data. The first number is the build points it costs to
put the unit on its first production cycle. [Clarification. You are not required to control a port to start naval
production - Feb. 16, 1998.] It is also the cost to repair the unit. The second number is the cost to put the unit on its
second production cycle.
All naval units take 2 turns to repair. Convoy points don’t get damaged, so you won’t ever repair them."

Thanks Orm clears up things do you know where the rule shows in the raw document file.

Bo



bo -> RE: naval units damage (6/30/2011 8:53:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

Whoops, too slow -- what he said.

[&:] huh!

Bo



Red Prince -> RE: naval units damage (6/30/2011 9:24:10 PM)

RAW 11.5.8 has a Combat Results table that has close to that text in it.



Orm -> RE: naval units damage (6/30/2011 10:02:12 PM)

In addition to RAW 11.5.8 as Red Prince said you can find the rules regarding repairing ships in "13.6.5 Building units" and below the heading "Naval Units".



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: naval units damage (6/30/2011 11:40:55 PM)

From the MWIF Players Manual:

On the left is an example of the Repair Pool with text underneath that describes it.

On the right is a discussion of how ships become damaged.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/BBC04012F8BD4FCABA29A39760FD7269.jpg[/image]



bo -> RE: naval units damage (7/1/2011 3:48:15 AM)

quote:

This is the relevant rules regarding damaged naval units. If anything remains unclear please ask and I will try to clarify things


I love that statement about unclear and clarify, you have been talking to Paul about me understanding things have you not? [:D] Thank you it cleared up the damage question, what is happening is I will do something in the WIF computer game and the computer program handles it correctly but no explanation as to what rule particular rule they are complying with. Thanks again Orm appreciate your help.

Bo



Plainian -> RE: naval units damage (7/1/2011 6:19:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4).



I see that damaged units have their attack factors halved plus their ability to defend against air/submarine is also halved.

Its range and speed is not affected which I find a bit strange but I am guessing that this can be justified because of the scale of the game.

The defensive strength being increased by +1 puzzles me though? Just out of curiosity whats the WIF justification for this and how does it work in the game?



Red Prince -> RE: naval units damage (7/1/2011 7:04:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4).



I see that damaged units have their attack factors halved plus their ability to defend against air/submarine is also halved.

Its range and speed is not affected which I find a bit strange but I am guessing that this can be justified because of the scale of the game.

The defensive strength being increased by +1 puzzles me though? Just out of curiosity whats the WIF justification for this and how does it work in the game?

In WiF and MWiF, a lower defense factor is better, so +1 means you are less able to defend yourself. Defense can range from zero to ten. In order to inflict a result (Destroy, Damage, Abort) on a target, the defense factor or less has to be rolled on a 10 sided die. So, a 6 defense, means 60% chance of the result happening. +1 to 7 means a 70% chance.



Extraneous -> RE: naval units damage (7/1/2011 8:20:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

RAW 11.5.8 has a Combat Results table that has close to that text in it.


RAW 11.5.8 [&:] Do you mean RAC 11.5.8 [&:]

RAW = ADG WiF Rules As Written.

RAC = Matrix Games MWiF Rules As Coded



Red Prince -> RE: naval units damage (7/1/2011 10:34:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

RAW 11.5.8 has a Combat Results table that has close to that text in it.


RAW 11.5.8 [&:] Do you mean RAC 11.5.8 [&:]

RAW = ADG WiF Rules As Written.

RAC = Matrix Games MWiF Rules As Coded

Nope. WIF FE RAW 7.0 has a section 11.5.8 Surface Naval Combat, with the table I mentioned. Steve posted the same section from RAC.



Plainian -> RE: naval units damage (7/2/2011 1:09:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4).



I see that damaged units have their attack factors halved plus their ability to defend against air/submarine is also halved.

Its range and speed is not affected which I find a bit strange but I am guessing that this can be justified because of the scale of the game.

The defensive strength being increased by +1 puzzles me though? Just out of curiosity whats the WIF justification for this and how does it work in the game?

In WiF and MWiF, a lower defense factor is better, so +1 means you are less able to defend yourself. Defense can range from zero to ten. In order to inflict a result (Destroy, Damage, Abort) on a target, the defense factor or less has to be rolled on a 10 sided die. So, a 6 defense, means 60% chance of the result happening. +1 to 7 means a 70% chance.


Thanks for the reply.

So 'in theory' a damaged warship is 50% less effective in attacking and only 10% less effective in defending against other surface ships.

Will go and see if I can dig out my WIF 5th Ed charts to see how this actually pans out on the CRT table.



paulderynck -> RE: naval units damage (7/2/2011 5:22:15 PM)

The Defense value is like a "saving roll". If the ship had a defense factor of 2 it can also be said it becomes 50% more likely to be further damaged, but if it had one of 6 then it becomes only 18.3% more likely. It's a game mechanism and using a 1D10, halving or doubling the original defense factor obviously would not work.

Some big BBs have a defense value of Zero and can only be sunk by getting two Xs or an X and a very lucky D in the same engagement.



Red Prince -> RE: naval units damage (7/2/2011 6:29:03 PM)

quote:

Some big BBs have a defense value of Zero and can only be sunk by getting two Xs or an X and a very lucky D in the same engagement.


[:D] I wonder if I can think of any of those BBs . . .

<---------



Extraneous -> RE: naval units damage (7/2/2011 7:25:15 PM)

Battleships with a zero defense factor:

Japanese: Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Karyu, Suma, and Hizen

United States of America: Montana, Ohio, Maine, and Louisiana



warspite1 -> RE: naval units damage (7/2/2011 8:43:57 PM)

Battleships with (or should have) a zero defense factor:

Japanese: Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Karyu, Suma, and Hizen

United States of America: Montana, Ohio, Maine, and Louisiana

Commonwealth: HMS Warspite [&o]



Red Prince -> RE: naval units damage (7/2/2011 10:13:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Battleships with (or should have) a zero defense factor:

Japanese: Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Karyu, Suma, and Hizen

United States of America: Montana, Ohio, Maine, and Louisiana

Commonwealth: HMS Warspite [&o]

[:D] My BB can beat up your BB any day! :-P



warspite1 -> RE: naval units damage (7/2/2011 11:54:26 PM)

Yeah, but my dad's bigger than your dad so yah boo sucks to you Mr P [:'(] [:)]



Red Prince -> RE: naval units damage (7/3/2011 12:06:00 AM)

[:)] to Rob

To all the rest of you, I apologize for the off topic digression. Must be the hot weather or something [8D]



mlees -> RE: naval units damage (7/3/2011 7:28:01 AM)

I wish to clarify the wording in the left-hand panel in post #8.

It reads, in part: "Repaired Naval Units go into the production pool."

If I recall correctly, damaged naval units go into the repair pool. When repaired, they are placed face up on the production circle/track, two turns into the future.

13.6.5 in my rules booklet:

"All other Naval Units have two costs printed on their back. The first number is the build points it costs to put the unit on its first production cycle. It is also the cost to repair the unit." <snip> "All Naval Units take two turns to repair." <snip> "You also put naval units face up if you are repairing them from the repair pool."

Is the wording in post 8 an error, or is this a difference as reflecting in the MWiF version of the game?

I apologize if this is a stupid nitpick...



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: naval units damage (7/3/2011 9:59:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

I wish to clarify the wording in the left-hand panel in post #8.

It reads, in part: "Repaired Naval Units go into the production pool."

If I recall correctly, damaged naval units go into the repair pool. When repaired, they are placed face up on the production circle/track, two turns into the future.

13.6.5 in my rules booklet:

"All other Naval Units have two costs printed on their back. The first number is the build points it costs to put the unit on its first production cycle. It is also the cost to repair the unit." <snip> "All Naval Units take two turns to repair." <snip> "You also put naval units face up if you are repairing them from the repair pool."

Is the wording in post 8 an error, or is this a difference as reflecting in the MWiF version of the game?

I apologize if this is a stupid nitpick...

MWIF doesn't have a "production circle/track". Instead it has a Production Pool with 6 'compartments' - one for each turn in a calendar year. You can see them in Post #8, at the top of the list of 'Pools'.

So we are saying the same thing with different words.

The Players Manual has a fuller description of the repair process in the section describing production.



mlees -> RE: naval units damage (7/3/2011 6:12:25 PM)

OK, thanks!



Joseignacio -> RE: naval units damage (7/4/2011 9:06:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

A damaged unit only has half its printed attack, AA and ASW factors. Its defense factor is 1 higher. Its range and speed are not affected. A damaged CV may not fly carrier planes (see 14.4).



I see that damaged units have their attack factors halved plus their ability to defend against air/submarine is also halved.

Its range and speed is not affected which I find a bit strange but I am guessing that this can be justified because of the scale of the game.

The defensive strength being increased by +1 puzzles me though? Just out of curiosity whats the WIF justification for this and how does it work in the game?

In WiF and MWiF, a lower defense factor is better, so +1 means you are less able to defend yourself. Defense can range from zero to ten. In order to inflict a result (Destroy, Damage, Abort) on a target, the defense factor or less has to be rolled on a 10 sided die. So, a 6 defense, means 60% chance of the result happening. +1 to 7 means a 70% chance.


Thanks for the reply.

So 'in theory' a damaged warship is 50% less effective in attacking and only 10% less effective in defending against other surface ships.

Will go and see if I can dig out my WIF 5th Ed charts to see how this actually pans out on the CRT table.


I think the right approach if this: You have a ship with a "defense factor of 6 (the average, there are many worse but also some smaller - some battleships) it would mean that you have a 40% possibilities of (for example) not sinking, if it gets damaged, for the next result he will have afactor of 7, which means he has a 30% of not sinking, so his chances have gone a 25% worse.

being the aerage between 6 and 7, if we think about seven it would come down from 30% to 20%, losing 33% posibilities of salvation.



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