Shameful Library (Full Version)

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Hankston -> Shameful Library (7/14/2011 3:52:15 PM)

Really ticked off at such a cheap library,plus in tute 3 you do not explain what to do with that bridge making unit and no talk of it in library.Sad , as you guys say you want new wargamers to play



IainMcNeil -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 4:07:12 PM)

You're joking right? :)

The library is a feature people love!

Admittedly there could be more details but we have plans to expand it in future.



Vasquez -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 4:09:52 PM)


quote:

you do not explain what to do with that bridge making unit and no talk of it in library


uhm. building bridges maybe? ;p



FroBodine -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 4:24:52 PM)

Yes, bridge builders build bridges, and you place them on the river. But nowhere in the manual or libray do they explain how to use them gamewise. I struggled with this myself until I got help.

Also, nothing is explained about how exactly to use transports, or what bracketed numbers in unit info mean, etc. [I found this stuff out by asking on the forums, which is great, but should not be required for a basic function of the game.]

Small details like this are missing throughout the manual, but they are very important to gameplay and should have been explained.

Awesome game, semi-vague manual.



ccsdc83 -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 4:29:10 PM)

Manual...we don't need no stinkin' manual. 



Lord Zimoa -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 4:29:46 PM)

The manual is not complete as it should be used in combination with the game tutorial messages.
For missing stuff we also plan to add to the Library some kind of Manual Errata tab for missing, new or incomplete information.



Hankston -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 4:39:21 PM)

Notice the arrogant answer from a vet wargamer.Yet they cry like babies when no new wargamers get involved trying to learn a computer board game



parusski -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 4:53:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ccsdc83

Manual...we don't need no stinkin' manual. 


I don't even know what a manual is. Just like I never read instructions.



Hankston -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 4:56:28 PM)

no it's not a joke not for a FIFTY DOLLAR GAME,plus thx for your snarly remark for someone new to computer wargames



Lord Zimoa -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 5:00:25 PM)

My advice is play the tutorial, make sure you have the tutorial messages on for the whole game and read the manual. We may have missed some things, we are far from perfect, but just ask here on the forum is something is not clear. You will do fine, also have a good look at the hotkey list for some extra help menu`s you can call up during gameplay.



vonRocko -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 5:06:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hankston

no it's not a joke not for a FIFTY DOLLAR GAME,plus thx for your snarly remark for someone new to computer wargames


I read the manual for every game. You are right, the manual is sparse, I didn't notice as much because I've played the previous PG games. But there are plenty of people who will answer any questions you have. It is a great game for newcomers! Enjoy.



Hankston -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 5:10:20 PM)

thank you and I will start asking if I get messed up.Thx again



IainMcNeil -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 5:42:33 PM)

Can you read back your initial post.... You called the library, nice bonus feature which is not required for the game at all, shamefull. Can you imagine how insulting that is to the dev team who spent many hours creating it. How many other games have this type of thing? Not many!

The documentation does nto cover every detail of teh game mechanics but its kind of by design. We don;t want to overface newcomers with huge manuals. You don't really need to know that stuff. We might look at creating some extra documentation for grognards who want to get under the hood but we certainly dont want to put off new players by making teh game look more complex than it is.



Moltke71 -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 6:29:36 PM)

In terms of use,, just move the bridge engineers on to a river hex. In tutorial four, they're useful in getting your troops across to the north quickly, allowing a descent on the enemy's west flank from the airfield base,



papajack -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 10:56:48 PM)

It is really harsh to make such a statement on the "library" features , it is one great thing that come with the game

But I have to agree that on tutorial 3 . there should be more info on how to use the bridge unit/how does it work   ...I am stuck myself in figuring that out  





JudgeDredd -> RE: Shameful Library (7/14/2011 11:02:44 PM)

The library is a great feature - but too sparse. I understand the costs to fill it up with no real added benefit to the game itself in terms of play - but if you can fill it out as you go, that would be very pleasing to alot of buyers.



IainMcNeil -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 7:19:09 AM)

It is something we want to do but as you say its very expensive to create the material. The bigger issue though is translations. The library is very word heavy and every extra word makes a new language harder and more expensive.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 7:44:49 AM)

Yeah - it's a shame as it is a great feature, but I do understand there's no real return here for you.



MikeGER -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 8:41:20 AM)

on Bridgepionieers

proposal for the next patch:

The intuitive way and fitting to the nice art-design of the execellent! game would be, if the pioneers enter a river hex the icon just changes into a 'layed WW2-style pontoon bridge'. So it would be clear without any explanations, even for new players. that the bridge-laying-equipment gets auto-deployed.

Another approach for the farer future cloud be, that the disembark button gets highligted too and the players can change the stance manually loosing a turn, the icon switch from pontoon to a improvised wooden bridge with better defensive stats for the pioneers maintaining it...


Regards
Mike




IainMcNeil -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 9:44:53 AM)

I like the idea but not sure there is any structure in the code to allow that. It might work if we made Bridge pioneers use the "switch" command to deploy the bridge - then we would have a mechanism to change the image. It would slow them down but might make more sense. We might have to make them a bit tougher to compensate but it could be cool.



Templer_12 -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 11:11:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeGER

on Bridgepionieers

proposal for the next patch:

The intuitive way and fitting to the nice art-design of the execellent! game would be, if the pioneers enter a river hex the icon just changes into a 'layed WW2-style pontoon bridge'. So it would be clear without any explanations, even for new players. that the bridge-laying-equipment gets auto-deployed.

Another approach for the farer future cloud be, that the disembark button gets highligted too and the players can change the stance manually loosing a turn, the icon switch from pontoon to a improvised wooden bridge with better defensive stats for the pioneers maintaining it...


Regards
Mike



That's an excellent idea!!! [sm=happy0065.gif]

I vote for that! +1



paco.g -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 12:55:14 PM)

I agree with the idea of changing the symbol or maybe a little icon in the right corner of the unit, which shows that the pionier can now be used as a bridge.

@ Iain McNeil
If you need some help to translate the library into german, ask me :) It should be no problem.




IainMcNeil -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 2:05:14 PM)

Thanks - we actually are looking for volunteers in all languages except German unfortuantely as we have that covered, but may need help with proof reading later. Here is where you can find out more http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26007

If anyone else is interested please let us know!



Greybriar -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 2:51:12 PM)

The manual for Panzer General is 76 pages long and the one for Panzer General II is 127 pages long. Both have Keyboard Shortcuts on the back covers. I am not advocating copyright infringement, but due to the similarities of the games couldn't you compare either of them to Panzer Corps's to insure you didn't leave something out? That seems to me to be an easy way to go about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeGER

on Bridgepionieers

proposal for the next patch:

The intuitive way and fitting to the nice art-design of the execellent! game would be, if the pioneers enter a river hex the icon just changes into a 'layed WW2-style pontoon bridge'. So it would be clear without any explanations, even for new players. that the bridge-laying-equipment gets auto-deployed....

That is the way it works in Panzer General II. I just checked it out by playing the Suomussalmi scenario and the Bridging unit turned into a bridge when I placed it on a river hex.

I have enjoyed playing Panzer Corps thus far. Thank you for your efforts.



Obsolete -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 5:40:42 PM)

quote:

Can you read back your initial post....


It is possible English is not his first language.

As for the manuals, I remember the PG2 manual was done very good. Looked very professionally laid out, and written. However, it was seriously lacking many of the in-depth details of mechanics in various areas. Things of this nature had to be worked out, even reverse engineered, and then tested on the PG forums over the many years to get the whole complete understanding.

I do know however from other wargames, if the publishers try to make an in-depth manual, then people start to complain that the manual is too big, and its somehow the developers fault that the game is too complex to understand now. You simply will never please everyone.



IainMcNeil -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 6:15:36 PM)

We deliberately tried to cut out any excessive detail to make it appeal to the wider audience. We'll have to look for ways to get the detail in for the guys who want it.



Javolenus -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 6:46:25 PM)

My first impression of the game is a good one: nice graphics, interface, and a great scenario editor. That said, considering the cost of the product (I paid over £30 inc. VAT), I'd expect all essential info to be included in the manual. Having read the above posts, looks like I'll be revisiting this forum for additional info (for example, I, too, was baffled by the pontoon units in tutorial 3).

Meanwhile, if any dev teams out there need a proof reader and/or copy editor (English language only), I'm a freelance professional with (I think) reasonable rates. I mention this because, in general, games are sometimes spoiled by spelling errors and stylistic inconsistencies in the ingame text and/or manual.

Finally, I'm looking forward to playing this game some more - still working through the tutorials . . .



Lord Zimoa -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 7:07:09 PM)

quote:

I'd expect all essential info to be included in the manual.



There is some misunderstanding here it seems the manual and tutorial messages are complimentary, so that way we could keep the manual lighter and tried to put as much tips and tutorial messages within the game, out side the tutorial campaign, you also get tutorial tips and messages through out the whole game, tool-tips on almost every button...

We may have missed some like the bridge pioneer and we will try and correct that in future patches and add possible a Manual Errata tab in the Library.

But we really tried to get a system in for newcomers to the genre to start playing, that never played PG before, and without reading a 100 page manual.

All in all I believe we managed pretty well. And we will add things like an explanation for bridge etc... in some extra tutorial messages and/or in the manual.

Of course for the veterans who really want to dig into the game mechanics we tried to add at least those menu`s in the game, but it is hard to please both.

In my opinion, if you play through the tutorial campaign, leave the tutorial messages on and have a read through the manual that is not that thick, have a look at the Library, you will understand more than enough to enjoy and play the game.

If you want to dig deep, we are here at your service. :-)


Cheers,

Tim aka LZ





HansHafen -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 7:19:23 PM)

Thanks for a great game guys. This is a scenario where you thought of 9,999 things and maybe missed one or two. Really appreciate y'all being so available to speak with and help us out etc. I hope y'all make lots of money and keep making more games! Pacific Corps, Star Corps, Fantasy Corps, Allied Corps, Peoples Corps! :)



Greybriar -> RE: Shameful Library (7/15/2011 7:58:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lord Zimoa

There is some misunderstanding here it seems the manual and tutorial messages are complimentary, so that way we could keep the manual lighter and tried to put as much tips and tutorial messages within the game, out side the tutorial campaign, you also get tutorial tips and messages through out the whole game, tool-tips on almost every button...

We may have missed some like the bridge pioneer and we will try and correct that in future patches and add possible a Manual Errata tab in the Library.

But we really tried to get a system in for newcomers to the genre to start playing, that never played PG before, and without reading a 100 page manual.

All in all I believe we managed pretty well. And we will add things like an explanation for bridge etc... in some extra tutorial messages and/or in the manual.

Of course for the veterans who really want to dig into the game mechanics we tried to add at least those menu`s in the game, but it is hard to please both.

In my opinion, if you play through the tutorial campaign, leave the tutorial messages on and have a read through the manual that is not that thick, have a look at the Library, you will understand more than enough to enjoy and play the game....

Perhaps I am an exception to the general rule but I don't remember reading either the Panzer General or Panzer General II manuals I mentioned above. Over 90% of the time I never read a game's manual and even then I only consult it when necessary as I would a reference book. I like to jump right into a game and learn it as I go and Panzer Corps is a game whose features will permit me to do exactly that.

Even so, I believe a game manual should contain everything about a game. Just because information is available in other forms either as a game aid or within the game itself, a game's manual is the primary source for a game and should be all-inclusive. If nothing else, that prevents someone from falling through the cracks.



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