BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (Full Version)

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abulbulian -> BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/16/2011 7:27:34 PM)

ok, I've been looking into this for a few days now and can say without any doubts that something is buggy with axis MG, At gun, and Mortar production. I know people have brought this up before and I'm a little surprised and disappointed that this has not been addressed yet???

In my test game (playing both sides), I had this situation with one of my German Inf Div

- German armaments 100k+
- German active manpower 100k (could let this grow as playing both sides)
- unit in refit mode
- unit 10 hexes behind lines on rail network

** in 4 turns the TOE MG % did not rise at ALL! This to me suggests that something is very very wrong here. Saw this trend with all German units I was watching. If this can not be explain to me and others, I would hope this issue could be fixed???? Please?

Kind of a big deal, IMO, because so many axis units rely on MGs for their combat efficiency. I'm not sure if there exists a corresponding issue with Soviet production.

I don't think I need to add that historically light and hvy MG production would receive a decent priority for front line units. But even so, there's plenty of manpower and armaments in my test game which I why I suspect some sort of bug here.

Also, I've seen some issues with mortar and AT gun production, but not as severe.

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NOTE: results while using BETA v1.04.36



Klydon -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/17/2011 2:56:57 AM)

The Russians have the same issues with their MG's as well. 



jzardos -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/17/2011 5:21:23 AM)

+1
+1
+1

Yes, yes, and yes! I was going to post this issue too. What the heck is going on here? Is this some sort of regression bug? Is this a dirty little secret the developers and some testers are trying to keep from us until they can fix it?

I know patches take time, but I have proof of the same issue in my game too!

Can somebody affiliated with the game or testers please have the courtesy of letting us know what is going on and what is going to be done? Not looking for any time frame, just want to know what I'm suppose to do with my game? Do I need to wait for patch? Pref to have my units gain their needed weapons. Bad enough their morale and moral is shot to hell from the winter ... don't get me started on the blizzard crap with axis morale.... ARGGGGGGGGGGGG

[&:][:(][&:][:@]



molchomor -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/17/2011 9:36:25 AM)

I think this needs to be moved to the tech support section ?



ComradeP -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/17/2011 12:58:26 PM)

I don't know how this is possible either. According to Pavel, it might have more to do with too high losses than with production. However, supposedly the equipment is produced on demand with armament points, so as long as armament points and manpower are available, I can't think of a reason why the production would lag behind losses.



kirkgregerson -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/17/2011 2:30:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I don't know how this is possible either. According to Pavel, it might have more to do with too high losses than with production. However, supposedly the equipment is produced on demand with armament points, so as long as armament points and manpower are available, I can't think of a reason why the production would lag behind losses.



Umm, not to hurt any testers or devs feelings, but it is a problem. I just looked back on many of my turns and have seen EXACTLY the same issue happening. I can send screen shots if needed to show a unit behind lines refitting that is getting no change in MG TOE %.

That at least solves the mystery of why some of my units don't seem to grow their TOE much. I really like that compare to TOE link, shows you exactly what units are lacking. I would also agree that MGs should be built with some priority when considering armaments and manpower.

I too hope this gets looked and soon. Getting it fixed I understand if that might take longer, but should be considered a high priority bug?



ComradeP -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/17/2011 2:54:10 PM)

quote:

Umm, not to hurt any testers or devs feelings, but it is a problem.


I'm not saying it isn't a problem, I'm saying I don't know why it happens and that it's not a logical problem as if armament points and manpower is available, the on demand system should produce the equipment.


There does seem to be an issue with the on demand production, although Pavel might've tweaked it since my last test game. The production system can overproduce elements, as when an element is damaged it seems to be registered as lost if it's in the transit pool, so the system produces a new one even though the old one isn't destroyed. For some reason, the system overproduces during the first dozen or so turns and then production starts lagging behind losses even if the armament points and equipment are available.

As of turn 9 in a game with the latest version, I've produced almost twice as many German MG's as I have lost thus far, but I expect the problem we're discussing to appear by around turn 20.



Q-Ball -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/17/2011 3:02:19 PM)

I noted the exact same thing in my game as Soviets; I noticed that Rifle Divisions on REFIT would fill-out with everything pretty quickly, EXCEPT MGs and Light Mortars. These take awhile, though eventually they also round-out.

Flavius commented that this happens with Rockets in the Red Army as well.



kirkgregerson -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/17/2011 7:44:01 PM)

The other very odd and bad thing is that the active pools of mgs is about 1,000. Given there is manpower, why don't my units in refit gain there mgs? What else do you need to make this happen? The units are in REFIT, on rail network, and many hexes behind the lines?

Guessing mg replacement just has for some reason a very low and incorrect replacement priority?

If this is not a bug, then what the heck is going on here????

ANYBODY?

[&:]


[image]local://upfiles/28882/AB3988C149634844B36E7AE028E7C78D.jpg[/image]



davetheroad -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/17/2011 8:52:04 PM)

After a quick internet search
MG34 production
42 - 77,340
43 - 165,527
44 - 278,164
45 - 56,089

MG42 production
42 to 45 - about 750,000

If you sort of match the two guns production rates
42 - 177,000
43 - 380,000
44 - 639,000
45 - 129,000

If the production of MG34 was lower in 1941 it may well be that there is a production shortage
until the MG42 production ramps up.



Joel Billings -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/17/2011 10:50:05 PM)

We will take a look at this. Remember, Pavel's been gone for several weeks on vacation and is just getting back up to speed on the game. We're also in the process of getting some version control software installed. I'm not sure if it will be easy for Pavel to get to the bottom of this or make changes to improve the situation, but until he looks at it we won't know. It's on his list of items to look at. If he needs a save I'm sure he'll ask for it once he's looking at the issue. I'd be surprised if this is something new. It's probably been like this for many months.



Baelfiin -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/18/2011 12:46:23 AM)

Thanks Joel,

I have been tracking ToE, production, armaments and manpower every turn from october through January so far. I have screen shots and its on the multiplayer server if whoever needs more information/data to crunch on 8)



Joel Billings -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/19/2011 1:50:59 AM)

I spoke with Pavel about this and we could use a few saves showing specific situations where you thin MGs and Mortars are not filling out units that are filling out with other items. He thinks most of these usually end up to be a combination of the way the on demand system works in conjunction with the replacement system along with the fact that armaments and manpower shortages can exist even when it looks like it doesn't (given the way the transit pools work). Also, keep in mind that there are many MGs built into other elements (like rifle squads) so comparing MG elements to MG production is apples to oranges (not to mention that the on demand production system doesn't allow us to match specific model production in any case). So bottom line is we need to see some saves where this problem is evident and Pavel will take a look to see if there is something that can be improved or if the situation can be explained. Please post saves in this thread if you can along with info on what units to look at. Thanks.



Baelfiin -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/19/2011 5:39:18 AM)

I don't have the saves, its a server pbem game but I have a lot of screen shots


[image]local://upfiles/20920/FD8F7F7C613940E1AB25E311EB0B2AF4.jpg[/image]



Baelfiin -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/19/2011 6:10:22 AM)

more

[image]local://upfiles/20920/2EC8C73CA5A2433DBB63D332E7D3C0E5.jpg[/image]



Baelfiin -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/19/2011 6:34:00 AM)

Last info I have, sorry pics are so ugly

[image]local://upfiles/20920/98E43D0333BB4BF58C1A4BBE1A74AA55.jpg[/image]



Helpless -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/19/2011 3:37:17 PM)

Save is very much appreciated. Also when comparing in-game production with historical, keep in mind that MG34/MG42 are used in many ground elements (ex. rifle squad), not only in separate MG squads.



Baelfiin -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/19/2011 6:58:53 PM)

Can you guys get the save games from the Slitherine server? If so do you need anything from me to do so?

Otherwise the only thing I can provide are screenshots of ToE, Production and of the armaments & manpower pool.

The item of interest I am trying to illustrate is that this motorized division, on refit mode, on a rail, in germany 3 hexes away from HQ cannot replenish its ToE on MG's. Going from 44 MG's on oct 1 to 98 mg's on jan 21 , just doesn't seem right.

I can only speculate why this happens, maybe the system is looking at the future ToE change that drops MG's down to 100 ish. Maybe MG's are replenished after all other needs are met and there just wasn't enough armaments remaining to build anymore MG teams. There was a constant balance of 30k armaments and 300k + manpower in the pools every turn.

Let me know if there is anything I can help with



Joel Billings -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/19/2011 7:02:26 PM)

Yes, we can download the latest save and one save back if we know the names of the players (if more than one game then give us an approximate start date and/or turn number).



Baelfiin -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/19/2011 7:10:49 PM)

Ok its 41 campaign started in we started in June iirc --- Baelfiin (axis) vs Hoooper (soviet). We are up to February '43 in that game now , 36th motorized has been sent to the front. Which will probably mess things up now that it is being beat on by the soviet hordes.



Joel Billings -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/19/2011 7:50:53 PM)

I looked at your save. You have an armaments shortage, and also have a shortage in manpower (you have 30k German manpower in the active pool after your replacement phase and 0 armaments). I see what you mean about the 36 Motorized Division that seems to have built up some solid TOE levels previously, but are short on MGs and AT guns (they have mortars). They are adjacent to the enemy this turn so I don't know what happend on the turn they were refitting, but it's possible that they ended up short of manpower or armaments on the refit turn and that's why they didn't get fully replaced. You have MGs in the pool, however they are in the transit pool (200-300 of them). When I filtered to the Active Pool, there were 0 MGs in the pool. So there you have it. No armaments and no weapons in the pool, so you don't get them. You may be having too much of a demand for these MGs so they aren't keeping up with the demand given the armaments shortage. You do have plenty of MGs that are attached to the various rifle/pioneer squads so your division has hundreds of MGs and is not totas lacking as you might think.
Now if you set your Max TOE levels of some of your HQ's/airbases/construction units, you could pull some manpower out of these non-combat units and free up the manpower to go into your combat units. You may want to do that as although you are not totally out of manpower in the pool, you are very close.



Baelfiin -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/19/2011 10:14:00 PM)

Here are the numbers that I see from the turns I was keeping track. Am I looking in the wrong place or is there a filter that I am missing? Also any idea why there was a 7 point jump in morale on the January 7th turn? **** EDIT **** Ok i see now that there is a way to filter to just german production.

So now there should be a way to prioritize easy to produce weapons of which there is a shortage (MG's) over hard stuff which there is a surplus (bombers)



[image]local://upfiles/20920/F26121DF84854FD68B797CF723C86119.jpg[/image]



kirkgregerson -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/21/2011 2:33:56 AM)

Joel,

I thought when you lower the TOE on units it will only prevent it from gaining more over that %. Do units with say 100% TOE in manpower get drained at some rate down to a hard set 50% TOE setting?

I can send a save of my turn, where to? Have 60k+ armaments and should have manpower too, but only during that turn. Still think the priority for mg replacement is too low. Should be gaining those mgs as more of a priority with manpower?

Thanks.



kirkgregerson -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/21/2011 2:41:39 AM)

Actually I think part of the issue is that my units around 7/42 started swapping out the old MG for the new MG. Not sure what the difference is yet. Will look at the editor. But you can see from screen shot that there's 15k of the old mgs in the pool now (11/42). Would love to still use the old MGs too. [:'(]

Think it's just a question of manpower?


** Also, will there ever be a patch to fix the negative pool values (red highlight)?



[image]local://upfiles/28882/23CC4735F49047789939060BBEB30EA9.jpg[/image]



Joel Billings -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/21/2011 2:45:15 AM)

I'm not sure about the negative pool values. I thought this was fixed at least once already. Please post this in a new thread, ideally with a save. Thanks.



Joel Billings -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/21/2011 2:48:06 AM)

The replacement system is extremely complex and not as easy as just saying let's boost priority of MGs.

As for making more MGs and less aircraft, remember that aircraft and AFVs are built. Unless you have a supply shortage, which is unlikely, their production is not impacting the production (or lack thereof) of the MGs.



Lieste -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/21/2011 2:55:35 AM)

Weren't the Germans using MG08, MG15 and MG08/15 weapons in infantry formations because of shortages of 'new' MG34/MG42... so having MG34 sitting idle while units starve seems unlikely...

Which I don't think matters too much, all these guns are basically the "same" as the Maxim (although the MG15 and MG08/15 are a little more portable than the MMG configuration) - WW1 proved them more than capable of killing... The same for ancient sFH, sFH02 and sFH13 guns and similar substitutions of 'museum pieces' mostly they work fine, if a little heavy and only suitable for horse drawn transport (all that is usually available anyway).



Joel Billings -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/21/2011 3:18:10 AM)

Forgot to say that setting TOE will not immediately cause the manpower to leave the units, but they will leave eventually as losses are taken. It will take longer for HQ's and airbases to lose the manpower since they will not be taking front line attrition. You raise a good point that it is not something that will immediately give you lots of manpower for combat replacements, so it's something you should do long before you really need it. An alternative is to disband some of the airbases and HQ's that are no longer needed (probably more airbases than HQ's for the Germans).



jaw -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/21/2011 1:33:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste

Weren't the Germans using MG08, MG15 and MG08/15 weapons in infantry formations because of shortages of 'new' MG34/MG42... so having MG34 sitting idle while units starve seems unlikely...

Which I don't think matters too much, all these guns are basically the "same" as the Maxim (although the MG15 and MG08/15 are a little more portable than the MMG configuration) - WW1 proved them more than capable of killing... The same for ancient sFH, sFH02 and sFH13 guns and similar substitutions of 'museum pieces' mostly they work fine, if a little heavy and only suitable for horse drawn transport (all that is usually available anyway).


The weapon names are in the game mostly for "color" with rather minor differences between them in specifications. Production cost is based on the type of machine gun (light, medium, heavy) and is the same for all MGs of that type. Therefore a shortage of MGs is a shortage of MGs, it doesn't matter what actual weapon we are talking about.



jzardos -> RE: BUG? can't be WAD - MG and Mortar prod (7/21/2011 5:41:43 PM)

I not liking the way the older model MGs are swapped out in 42 as it seems to leave a low TOE% of MGs in units which takes a while to build up with the new MGs.

To me this makes no sense to have 15k old MGs in the prod pool while units on the front are screaming for MGs to fill their ranks. The MG is a basic and core piece of equipment and something is wrong if units are not able to replenish the TOE of MGs in 1 month (refitting behind the lines) when either the armaments and/or MGs are in the pool?

Just like abulbulian and kirkgregerson, I'm really seeing across ALL my units in mid-late 42 a lack of MG TOE% that has been consistent for almost 3 months now. Very unhappy that these MGs are not being manned from the pool and send to my units.

Correct me if I'm wrong



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