AI Ship Design (Full Version)

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Kal Naar -> AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 4:39:45 PM)

Hi all,
First time poster, be friendly [;)]

Bought the game a week ago, and I find it amazing, exactly what I expect of a 4x Game, and on top we can also control the level of micro we want to do.

Nonetheless, ship design by the AI, is one area where it needs a lot of work.

For example, in my last game, the AI seems pretty capable of running its empire.
It has good levels on economic, strategic and some are completely ahead of me technologically speaking, which is normal, since I’m playing with the Mortalen and I’m keeping the empire more war oriented.
But, the AI ship designs completely suck… I mean I’m not overly concerned with my ship designs, but I do upgrade them manually.

What I found is the AI tends to concentrate designing bigger ships, as they are normally in a type by type comparison 20 to 30% larger than mine, but, my ships drive in circles around theirs. Is this normal?
Attached is an image for comparison, between my Capital Ship (blue) and for the 2 bigger AI empires (Yellow and Pink).

I know they have fighters and all, but there is a 281 ton difference between them and my capital ship is better in every category.

Is this being addressed for future patchs or is there any modd out there that solves this problem?



[image]local://upfiles/38997/0DD4D8B6CCF04AF78B1A6EB0A1D3EA11.jpg[/image]



ASHBERY76 -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 5:19:14 PM)

The A.I have designs based on their ideology and do not react to what is happening in the game from what I see.



Kal Naar -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 5:24:03 PM)

But shouldn't the ideology of the Quameno and Haakonish be completely different, trade vs research?
Why should their designs be so similar?

Is there a way to check the components for the AI designs? Using the editor perhaps?



J HG T -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 6:09:48 PM)

If nothing else, the scanner ship component allows you to see what components other ships have.
And yes. The A.I ship design is very lacking compared to your own designs that take every ton out of the ships potential.

One absolutely great thing would be an outside of the game ship editor that you could use to give A.I empires better basic ships. Would help a long way with this problem. Now that I think of it, there was talk about this some time ago, so hopefully Elliot or Erik has noticed it.

Anyways, better A.I ship designs are requested a lot, and hopefully next patch or the coming expansion fixes them. 



Data -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 6:23:35 PM)

Hi Kal Naar and welcome to the forum.
This is one of the major aspects that will allow you to win very easily once you get the hang of the game. Until this is fixed, there's always rping and relaxed gameplay. This game certainly provides a great atmosphere and immersion, Elliot got that right from his first try.
I for example I'm playing now just to enjoy the universe and taste all of the great mods done so far; btw, there's a super AI mod that you may find useful here -> http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2660327



Kal Naar -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 6:43:09 PM)

Yes, with such a tool the modders would surely be able to create some decent models.

I really don't lose too much time with my designs, basically I just add the best weapons + shields available, i dont understand how they can be so much better than the AI.
I have to use the ship scanner to check what the hell those ships are carrying.



Kal Naar -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 6:44:25 PM)

Thank you Data,

I had already read that thread, but the feedback about how it makes the game to much about war put me off trying it.
Will give it a try.



Data -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 6:52:40 PM)

I think we can compensate for that once we use this mod.
And also the biggest problem with AI design is that the ships are always underpowered...so adding more weapons only increses that problem.
I always put an extra reactor to make sure I have enough energy available for everything (it's important to move fast and shoot at max speed at the same time)...and also energy collectors to save up on fuel.



Igard -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 7:03:56 PM)

Welcome to the forums.[:)]

Very good point that hasn't been discussed nearly enough. There are only 4 settings to choose from, 0=Balanced, 1=Speed/Agility, 2=Power, 3=Efficiency.

Then there are 2 optional design focuses for components Each race can select from two of these options, 0=None, 1=Beams, 2=Torpedoes, 3=Missiles, 4=Area Weapons, 5=Ion Weapons, 6=Fighters, 7=Shields, 8=Reactors, 9=Engines, 10=HyperDrives, 11=Hyper Disruption, 12=Construction, 13=Computers, 14=Sensors

This is all we have to work with for modding the design focus of each race.

There are a couple of good ideas, posted by Shark7 on the modder's masterlist thread :- http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2526278

Taking some of Shark's ideas from this thread, we could expand greatly on what we have.

Eg. Race will never design Area Effect weapons,

Race will only develop level 1 armour,

Race will only develop level 3 engines,

etc.



Kal Naar -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 9:15:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Data

I think we can compensate for that once we use this mod.
And also the biggest problem with AI design is that the ships are always underpowered...so adding more weapons only increses that problem.
I always put an extra reactor to make sure I have enough energy available for everything (it's important to move fast and shoot at max speed at the same time)...and also energy collectors to save up on fuel.



Good tip, my ships are usually low on energy [&:]




Data -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 9:17:26 PM)

not sure if you already checked this but it's great for ship designing basics, a little outdated but still a classic -> http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2411040
have fun [;)]



Kal Naar -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 9:36:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard

Welcome to the forums.[:)]

Very good point that hasn't been discussed nearly enough. There are only 4 settings to choose from, 0=Balanced, 1=Speed/Agility, 2=Power, 3=Efficiency.

Then there are 2 optional design focuses for components Each race can select from two of these options, 0=None, 1=Beams, 2=Torpedoes, 3=Missiles, 4=Area Weapons, 5=Ion Weapons, 6=Fighters, 7=Shields, 8=Reactors, 9=Engines, 10=HyperDrives, 11=Hyper Disruption, 12=Construction, 13=Computers, 14=Sensors

This is all we have to work with for modding the design focus of each race.

There are a couple of good ideas, posted by Shark7 on the modder's masterlist thread :- http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2526278

Taking some of Shark's ideas from this thread, we could expand greatly on what we have.

Eg. Race will never design Area Effect weapons,

Race will only develop level 1 armour,

Race will only develop level 3 engines,

etc.




These are very good ideas, that way you could really create different gameplay styles for the different races.

Also, dhouldn't the components be dependent to specific ship types?
In my last save the Quameno had Capital Ships with Medical Center, does it make any sense?

If the components are dependent to ship types, the ship designer will be easier to use since if I'm building a scout there should only appear the components available for a scout.
That should also help the AI to narrow the necessary components for a given ship.



Igard -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/17/2011 9:46:49 PM)

I think there are cases where the AI can put redundant components on ships. However the medical facilities are very useful for any ship carrying troops. The troops have a 'readiness' stat that will reduce after combat. A med facility speeds up their recovery. So in that case, it's correct to put them on large ships with troop components.



Shark7 -> RE: AI Ship Design (7/18/2011 3:05:59 PM)

A lot of us have asked for and are still asking for a file that allows us to design 'templates' for the AI to follow on ship design.

It would also be nice if we could share our templates with each other.



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