quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
I think changing to unlimited chits was a solution in search of a problem. A major part of the re-design of the game in the Final Edition was to eliminate critical luck, I believe I read that in the Designer's Notes. For that reason the game was changed from a d6 system to a d10 system. A further wrinkle was added in 2007, changing the values of the entry chits to reduce the high & low value chits in favor of more middle value chits. The unlimited chit system is a move in the opposite direction for the game. Let's say the US got truly lucky and drew all the "4" chits at once. The unlimited chit system magnifies that luck as the US always has the same chance of pulling more "4" chits, and could also magnify the bad luck of the US pulling all of the "1" chits. There will be more such games in MWIF than in the cardboard game, and may result in players increasing the significance of the USE system in their decisions, which is good strategy for this game actually. But there will also be a few more games where unusual USE results determine the winner perhaps more than the skill of equally matched players.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Which is correct Post #: 121 or Post #: 129?

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Here are the standard deviation results from the "re-modeling" of the chit distributions:

Edit: It is interesting that you get diefferent divergence depending on the strategic choices of the Axis. This is because the pre-programmed distribution has to stay the same regardless of those choices.

[image]local://upfiles/24497/DC4F48ABE5B44FF692A36E6A7D458DD8.jpg[/image]

quote:

[image]local://upfiles/38062/EA720A3409B146C393B28F0D31A83770.jpg[/image]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I think surrendering China at this point would be a mistake.

When do you think it should be done, if you think it should be considered at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Extraneous

Which is correct Post #: 121 or Post #: 129?

You're going to have to be a little more specific than that. They are both correct (though there may be a typo in one of them somewhere). Post #129 is just a more detailed version of Post #120. What is the problem that you think needs clarification? I'll try to answer, but I need to know what your question is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Extraneous

Which is correct Post #: 121 or Post #: 129?

You're going to have to be a little more specific than that. They are both correct (though there may be a typo in one of them somewhere). Post #129 is just a more detailed version of Post #120. What is the problem that you think needs clarification? I'll try to answer, but I need to know what your question is.

Ok, figured it out my error.

But Post #: 121 goes to S/O 40 while Post #129 only goes to J/F '40.

What happened after J/F '40?

quote:

S/O '39
US Entry chits at start:
2 x Ge/It (4, 4)
1 x Ja (1)

Impulse 1:
20. Axis declares war on Poland (Ge/It) (12) (CW); (Germany DoW’s Poland) (Ge/It 2) (no additional chit).
19. Axis align minor ~ Siam (Ja) (3); (Japan aligns Siam) (no chit).

Impulse 2:
25. CW or France or both declare war on Germany (Ge/It) (-9); (CW DoW’s Germany) (Removed Ge/It 2 to common pool).
26. USSR controls East Poland (Ge/It) (-7); (no chit removed)

Impulse 3:
7. Italy declares war on CW or France or both (Ge/It) (7): (Italy DoW’s France) (Ge/It 3)
20. Axis declares war on Denmark (Ge/It) (3) (France); (Germany DoW’s Denmark) (Ge/It 4)
20. Axis declares war on Greece (Ge/It) (3) (CW); (Germany DoW’s Greece) (Ge/It 2)
20. Axis declares war on Netherlands (Ge/It) (3) (CW); (Germany DoW’s Netherlands) (Ge/It 1)
20. Axis declares war on Greece (Ge/It) (3) (CW); (Italy DoW’s Greece) (no chit)
19. Axis aligns minor (Ge/It) (3); (Germany aligns Bulgaria) (no chit)

Impulse 4:
USSR claims Finnish Borderlands (Germany allows)
31. USSR declares war on Persia (Ge/It) (9) (Japan); (Removed Ge/It 1 to common pool).

Impulse 5:
20. Axis declares war on Belgium (Ge/It) (8)  (CW); (Ge/It 4).
10. Japan occupies Chinese city (Ja) (4); (Japanese attack on Tsinan successful, disorganized) (Ja 4)

End of Turn:
USA draws 1 chit for the Japan Entry Pool (Ja 4)

Selected US Entry Options:
15 Resources to Western Allies (Ge/It) (6); (no chits moved)
7 Occupy Greenland and Iceland (Ge/It) (9); (Moved to Ge/It tension 4)
9 Resources to China (Ja) (4); (no chits moved)
1 Chinese Build Aircraft (Ja) (3); (no chits moved)

Ge/It Entry: (2 + 3 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 17) (17 x 1.5 = 25.5) + (9 x 0.5 = 4.5) = 30.
Ge/It Tension: (4) (4 x 1.5 = 6) + (0 x 0.5 = 0) = 6.
Japan Entry: (1 + 4 + 4 = 9) (9 x 1.5 = 13.5) + (17 x 0.5 = 8.5) = 22.
Japan Tension: (no chits) (0 x 1.5 = 0) + (4 x 0.5 = 2) = 2.

quote:

Here's how the US Entry chits played out:
-----
I'm sorry if this is somewhat confusing. I trimmed away pretty much everything that had nothing to do with US Entry chits.
-----
S/O '39
US Entry chits at start:
2 x Ge/It (2588, 2912) - 4, 4
1 x Ja (327) - 1

Impulse 1:
Germany DOW Poland (CW); USE-5 (+1 chit, 1699) - 2 (2, 4, 4)
Japan aligns Siam; USE-7 (no chit)

Impulse 2:
CW DOW Germany; USE-9 (-1 chit, 1 of 3 [0]) - 2 (4, 4)
USSR occupies Eastern Poland; USE-10 (no chit)

Impulse 3:
Italy DOW France; USE-3 (+1 chit, 1888) - 3 (3, 4, 4)
Germany DOW Denmark (CW); USE-1 (+1 chit, 2787) - 4 (3, 4, 4, 4)
Germany DOW Greece (CW); USE-2 (+1 chit, 1052) - 2 (2, 3, 4, 4, 4)
Germany DOW Netherlands (CW); USE-1 (+1 chit, 552) - 1 (1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4)
Italy DOW Greece; USE-9 (no chit)
Germany aligns Bulgaria; USE-10 (no chit)

Impulse 4:
USSR claims Finnish Borderlands (Allowed)
USSR DOW Persia (Ja); USE-5 (-1 chit, 1 of 6 [0]) - 1 (2, 3, 4, 4, 4)

Impulse 5:
Germany DOW Belgium (CW); USE-5 (+1 chit, 2523) - 4 (2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4)
Japanese attack on Tsinan successful, disorganized; USE-2 (+1 chit, 2689) - 4 (1, 4)

End of Turn:
USA draws 1 chit to the Ja Entry Pool (2541) - 4 (1, 4, 4)
USA selects Resources to Western Allies; USE-10 (no chits moved) and Occupy Greenland and Iceland; USE-9 (1 chit moved, 3 of 6 [2]) Ge/It - 4
USA selects Resources to China; USE-8 (no chits moved) and Chinese Build Aircraft; USE-9 (no chits moved) Ja

Ge/It Entry: 30 (2, 3, 4, 4, 4)
Ge/It Tension: 6 (4)
Japan Entry: 22 (1, 4, 4)
Japan Tension: 2 (-)


N/D '39
Impulse 3:
Japan Closes the Burma Road; USE-5 (+1 chit, 2911) - 4 (1, 4, 4, 4)

End of Turn:
USA draws 1 chit to the Ja Entry Pool (548) - 1 (1, 1, 4, 4, 4)
USA selects Relocate Fleet to Pearl Harbor; USE-3 (1 chit moved, 5 of 5 [4]) Ja - 4
USA selects Resources to USSR; USE-10 (no chits moved) and Lend Lease to Western Allies; USE-4 (1 chit moved, 4 of 5 [3]) Ge/It - 4

Ge/It Entry: 25 (2, 3, 4, 4)
Ge/It Tension: 14 (4, 4)
Japan Entry: 22 (1, 1, 4, 4)
Japan Tension: 10 (4)


J/F '40
Impulse 3:
Germany denies the claims by Hungary and Bulgaria
Germany DOW Hungary (France); USE-8 (no chit)
Germany aligns Finland; USE-6 (no chit)

Impulse 7:
Rumania aligns with Germany as a Full Ally; USE-3 (+1 chit, 194) - 1 (1, 2, 3, 4, 4)
Japan occupies Nanning; USE-2 (+1 chit, 355) - 4 (1, 1, 4, 4, 4)

Impulse 12:
Italy aligns Iraq; USE-10 (no chit)

End of Turn:
USA draws 1 chit to the Ja Entry Pool (123) - 1 (1, 1, 1, 4, 4, 4)
USA selects Reopen Burma Road; USE-8 (no chits moved) Ja
USA selects Gift of Destroyers to Commonwealth; USE-9 (no chits moved) All
USA selects US East Coast Escorts; USE-3 (1 chit moved, 5 of 5 [4]) Ge/It - 4

Ge/It Entry: 23 (1, 2, 3, 4)
Ge/It Tension: 20 (4, 4, 4)
Ja Entry: 28 (1, 1, 1, 4, 4, 4)
Ja Tension: 12 (4)
-----
You can see from this that the Allies tried to avoid doing anything that would remove chits.

quote:

There is no such thing as bad strategies just different strategies. But different isn’t always better.

Keep up the good work!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Going back to the strategic situation:
Gibraltar has a good defense for this impulse, since there aren't enough German HQ's involved for the attrittion warfare he has to do, to capture the place (IMHO you need at least three German HQ's present there, to make three or four assaults on the place in a row with 2-1/3-1 odds involved, if Gibraltar can't be put out of supply).
However: there are no CW land units to arrive next turn, which can reïnforce the area. This is disturbing: so build CW land units! You're going to lose at least 2 or 3 a turn, while defending Gibraltar, if the Germans are willing to sacrifice 4-6 units a turn to get the place (and I've seen Germans take those losses in two turns with five attacks against the place. Eventually, he captured the area, but the costs were staggering. Pyrrhus victory...).
The Communist Chinese are almost surrounded. However, you've still got an open Birma Road and four Chinese PP left. Also, the distance the Japanese has to cover before capturing the Nationalist factory cities is quite large, considering the winter turns coming up. Mao and a GAR is coming up as reïnforcements. So don't surrender. China can still put up a reasonable defense, especially since the Japanese has to use enough forces to keep the Communists in check (Japan needs 4 units along the railroad, since otherwise any units going towards Lan Chow might risk getting OOS, by a moving Communist who flips after movement...). Mao in Lan Chow has a good opportunity to survive at least a couple of turns. Surrender should be far beyond anything, regarding the Chinese. Surrender becomes an option when you're down to two factory cities in China IMHO...

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

If you are not deeply experienced with the crazy possibilities that can arise in the rules to World in Flames, here are some examples of what Steve is dealing with trying to code this beast:

going back to the multiple USE rolls for the DOW on Greece - questions come to mind:

Perhaps I've played it wrong that there would only be one die roll for Italy and Germany doing a DOW on Greece on the same impulse. It does show on the chart that there is a single roll for a combined DOW on the USSR, but for minor countries it just says "Axis", although the notes do say "once per neutral minor country". I don't see any clarification on this point in the FAQ. Is this maybe new?

But aside from that question, several others appear. Once Italy issues a DOW, there is little point for the Germans to do the same. Greece would have to be aligned to an active major power, which would be France or the CW, which would then make Greece at war with Germany as the WiF rules go. Playing it out in person, I think a lot of people learning the game would come to that conclusion and realize there is no need for a separate German DOW and thus no second USE roll. But the computer could allow it as you have to allow the players to make mistakes, and DOWs come before alignments, so....but that would be considered rather harsh to enforce the unnecessary roll when playing in person. Or should the computer issue a warning that this extra DOW is almost irrelevant? A bit of a philosophical one for MWIF there I guess.

And then how does it interact with Surprise rules....would Germany have to issue a DOW to achieve the benefits of Surprise? (And thus a 2nd USE roll)?

And how about a game where Russia is active against Japan.....they could align Greece, and Germany would then not be at war with Greece, and perhaps would need their own DOW (And thus a 2nd USE roll)?. This would be rather silly for a player to do at first glance, but perhaps the USSR has designs/activities in Bulgaria....and the Pact rules come into play, as if a USSR controlled unit "enters" a Greek hex, the Germans can break the Pact, so the USSR might have it's reasons to hope to sucker the Germans into that decision....lots of things to test there (do completely stationary Soviet controlled Greek units "enter" hexes?).

Or with an alignment to France, lots of odd rules situations occur when France goes through the Vichy process while still being the controlling Major Power of an unconquered Minor country, particularly when that Minor country is at war with an otherwise neutral Major Power. Two neutral Major Powers on the same "side" at war with each other? Chaos. And one final level of craziness....Italy can become the controlling Major Power of Vichy France and then sorta fight ... itself? If computers were made of steam-punk style gears, I see metal exploding at this point, but as it is all zeroes and ones, I see a frozen screen instead. ?

A fair amount of the above would be rather dubious decision making while playing WiF; but without the time investment in sorting out thousands of little cardboard counters, players of MWiF will make crazier decisions, I think.

Perhaps this could be moved to the rules question thread by someone not on dial-up, to not distract Red Prince from his excellent William Shirer like reporting on an alternative WWII.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

If you are not deeply experienced with the crazy possibilities that can arise in the rules to World in Flames, here are some examples of what Steve is dealing with trying to code this beast:

going back to the multiple USE rolls for the DOW on Greece - questions come to mind:

Perhaps I've played it wrong that there would only be one die roll for Italy and Germany doing a DOW on Greece on the same impulse. It does show on the chart that there is a single roll for a combined DOW on the USSR, but for minor countries it just says "Axis", although the notes do say "once per neutral minor country". I don't see any clarification on this point in the FAQ. Is this maybe new?

But aside from that question, several others appear. Once Italy issues a DOW, there is little point for the Germans to do the same. Greece would have to be aligned to an active major power, which would be France or the CW, which would then make Greece at war with Germany as the WiF rules go. Playing it out in person, I think a lot of people learning the game would come to that conclusion and realize there is no need for a separate German DOW and thus no second USE roll. But the computer could allow it as you have to allow the players to make mistakes, and DOWs come before alignments, so....but that would be considered rather harsh to enforce the unnecessary roll when playing in person. Or should the computer issue a warning that this extra DOW is almost irrelevant? A bit of a philosophical one for MWIF there I guess.

And then how does it interact with Surprise rules....would Germany have to issue a DOW to achieve the benefits of Surprise? (And thus a 2nd USE roll)?

And how about a game where Russia is active against Japan.....they could align Greece, and Germany would then not be at war with Greece, and perhaps would need their own DOW (And thus a 2nd USE roll)?. This would be rather silly for a player to do at first glance, but perhaps the USSR has designs/activities in Bulgaria....and the Pact rules come into play, as if a USSR controlled unit "enters" a Greek hex, the Germans can break the Pact, so the USSR might have it's reasons to hope to sucker the Germans into that decision....lots of things to test there (do completely stationary Soviet controlled Greek units "enter" hexes?).

Or with an alignment to France, lots of odd rules situations occur when France goes through the Vichy process while still being the controlling Major Power of an unconquered Minor country, particularly when that Minor country is at war with an otherwise neutral Major Power. Two neutral Major Powers on the same "side" at war with each other? Chaos. And one final level of craziness....Italy can become the controlling Major Power of Vichy France and then sorta fight ... itself? If computers were made of steam-punk style gears, I see metal exploding at this point, but as it is all zeroes and ones, I see a frozen screen instead. ?

A fair amount of the above would be rather dubious decision making while playing WiF; but without the time investment in sorting out thousands of little cardboard counters, players of MWiF will make crazier decisions, I think.

Perhaps this could be moved to the rules question thread by someone not on dial-up, to not distract Red Prince from his excellent William Shirer like reporting on an alternative WWII.

MWIF should follow RAW if that is possible.
Things like DOW's and alignment of minors and the consequences thereof should be in the manuals. If, in a multiplayer game people aren't communicating and therefore double DOW's occur, than there should be a double US die roll since this is RAW.
The surprise impulse is also pretty good adressed in RAW. If a MP declares war, the other party is surprised. If not, they aren't surprised. So if Italy DOW's Greece and Germany enters Greece in cojunction with Italian units, only the Italian units get the benefits of surprise (see RAW...). Personally I think this is the penalty for not rolling the second US entry die...
The USSR can align Greece when active. The Greek units than becomes controlled by the USSR. Since they don't enter a hex in Greece (they are already there, same with FTC when the HQ is eliminated or withdrawn from a home country), the Germans can't break the pact (so it is also covered by RAW). If a Greek unit leaves Greece and than returns, the German player can break the pact.
The last one is a kind of tricky, but when Vichy is declared, any MP at war with Greece will be kicked out of the country when Greece becomes Vichy, so war ends there and Greece is Vichy territory (also covered by RAW...).

I understand that it is hell to code all these kind of things, however I hope MWIF will follow RAW with this. One could say that historically things are a little crazy, however trying to fix these kind of things shouldn't be made IMHO...

// ****************************************************************************
// DOW SubPhases.
// ****************************************************************************
  TDOWSubPhase = (
    DspDOWMajor,              // RAC 9.2 & 9.3.
    DspDOWMinor,              // RAC 9.2, 9.3, 9.10, & 13.3.2 (#7 & #44).
    DspUSEntry,               // RAC 9.4.
    DspNeutralityPacts,       // RAC 9.5.
    DspReserves,              // RAC 9.6.
    DspChooseAligner,         // RAC 9.7.
    DspSetupAttackedMinor,    // RAC 9.7.
    DspAlignMinor,            // RAC 9.8.
    DspSetupAlignedMinor,     // RAC 9.8.
    DspDone, DspWait);

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I believe MWiF Rules as Coded has adjusted the RAW resolution process for when Vichy is declared and the French have aligned or conquered other minor countries. This had to be done because of the problems presented by a possible Vichy NEI.

The other complications Brian Brian mentions have been coded and are continuously being playtested. It's this order of complication that we can give credits to for some of the release date delays. These things simply have to work or it won't be WiF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I believe MWiF Rules as Coded has adjusted the RAW resolution process for when Vichy is declared and the French have aligned or conquered other minor countries. This had to be done because of the problems presented by a possible Vichy NEI.

The other complications Brian Brian mentions have been coded and are continuously being playtested. It's this order of complication that we can give credits to for some of the release date delays. These things simply have to work or it won't be WiF.

I'm a little curious... What has been changed regarding to a Vichy alignment of minors?

// ****************************************************************************
// RAC 17.2
// 1 All Axis controlled hexes in Vichy controlled minor countries and
//   territories immediately revert to Vichy French control.
// 2 Axis controlled hexes in Free French controlled minor countries and
//   territories remain under Axis control.
// 3 All Allied controlled hexes in Free French controlled minor countries and
//   territories immediately revert to Free French control.
// 4 All Allied controlled hexes in Vichy French controlled minor countries and
//   territories may now be immediately reverted to Vichy control. Vichy France
//   is hostile to all Allied major powers that do not immediately revert all
//   such hexes to Vichy control.
// 5 Finally all Vichy controlled minor countries France has gained controlled
//   of since the start of the game immediately become controlled by an Axis
//   major power nominated by the major power that installed Vichy France.  The
//   minor country is conquered if it aligned to France and aligned if it were
//   conquered by France.  If more than one minor country is available to be
//   allocated they may be allocated to different major powers.
// ****************************************************************************

// ****************************************************************************
// Vichy subphases.
// ****************************************************************************
  TVichySubPhase = (
    vspControl,                 // RAC 17.2.
    vspMoveNonFrenchLandAir,    // RAC 17.3 para 1, nearest by owning major power.
    vspMoveNonFrenchNaval,      // RAC 17.3 para 2, nearest by owning major power.   +++
    vspMoveFrenchAtSea,         // RAC 17.3 para 3, nearest by Vichy controller.
    vspMoveFrenchLandAirAxis,   // RAC 17.3 para 4, nearest by Vichy controller.
    vspMoveFrenchNavalAxis,     // RAC 17.3 para 4, nearest by Vichy controller.
    vspDestroyFrench,           // RAC 17.3 para 5 (Allied player choice).
    vspMoveFrenchLandAirAllied, // RAC 17.3 para 5, nearest by Vichy controller.
    vspMoveFrenchNavalAllied,   // RAC 17.3 para 5, nearest by Vichy controller.
    vspProduction,              // RAC 17.3 para 6, by Vichy controller.
    vspSetup,                   // RAC 17.3 para 6, by Vichy controller.
    vspMoveFrenchVichy,         // RAC 17.3 para 7, by Vichy controller.
    vspUnitControl,             // RAC 17.3 para 8 - 11.
    vspConquerFrance);

quote:

But aside from that question, several others appear. Once Italy issues a DOW, there is little point for the Germans to do the same. Greece would have to be aligned to an active major power, which would be France or the CW, which would then make Greece at war with Germany as the WiF rules go. Playing it out in person, I think a lot of people learning the game would come to that conclusion and realize there is no need for a separate German DOW and thus no second USE roll. But the computer could allow it as you have to allow the players to make mistakes, and DOWs come before alignments, so....but that would be considered rather harsh to enforce the unnecessary roll when playing in person. Or should the computer issue a warning that this extra DOW is almost irrelevant? A bit of a philosophical one for MWIF there I guess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Oh some day I'll learn to play this game, not the first time this site has helped me figure it out. Nothing like the answer hiding in plain sight right there in the actual rules...it's too easy to just use the chart on the 'simple' USE actions. WiF is tricky that way.

I figured the MWIF team was already on top of these questions. I've always known it was a possibility for a minor to be aligned to France and then Vichy, or an active USSR before Barbarossa, but never seen it happen and sorting that out still kind of makes my head spin. I like that idea about satisfying the 'enter' clause the same way 'enter' works in the Foreign Troop Commitment rules work, makes sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Going back to the strategic situation:
Gibraltar has a good defense for this impulse, since there aren't enough German HQ's involved for the attrittion warfare he has to do, to capture the place (IMHO you need at least three German HQ's present there)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Going back to the strategic situation:
Gibraltar has a good defense for this impulse, since there aren't enough German HQ's involved for the attrittion warfare he has to do, to capture the place (IMHO you need at least three German HQ's present there)

I've taken what you said to heart. It is now impulse #9 of N/D '40 (3rd Axis impulse), and the conditions are terrible for attacking Gibraltar again this turn, so . . .

I railed 3 more German HQs into the area. The only reason I can safely do this is that there is no way the Allies can mount any kind of invasion -- or any attack, for that matter -- in Europe yet.

I now have 14 points of Reorg capability within striking distance of Gibraltar. Unfortunately, I'll probably need it all. The chance of Fine weather in the Med in J/F '41 is small, and it isn't great in M/A '41, either. At the end of this turn (and probably next turn, too), I'm going to build a German O-chit, which will show up in M/J '41. In all likelyhood, I won't get that '41 Barbarossa that I want, unless I do try a winter strike on the USSR.

That first O-chit is in case I don't get lucky in M/A '41 and get a few Fine weather impulses to work with. By then the CW should be in much better shape to reinforce Gibraltar more regularly, and my only real choice will be to use the O-chit to crack it, tossing in everything I've got. That means I also have to rebuild my PARA at the end of this turn, and maybe even consider getting the MAR built soon, too.

I've committed. Now I've got to do everything I can to make this happen as soon as possible. The problem with using an O-chit is that half of it will end up wasted -- assuming I use Rundstedt, I'll only be able to double 4 units. On the plus side, the German fleet sortied into the North Sea during the first impulse of the turn and survived, which means I should be able to get them into position to "contest" Cape St. Vincent . . . or at least get some of them over there in order to add Shore Bombardment to what the Italians can offer.

quote:

I prefer to use an O-chit to reorganize all the HQs. That would enable you to use one of the HQs as support in an attack (e.g., the 3rd attack) and then reorganize all 3 of them.