Brigade/Regiment ZoC (Full Version)

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Baelfiin -> Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 3:22:15 AM)

Have the Devs/Playtesters looked at not having zocs for anything under a division in size? It might make things a little more difficult to conduct delaying actions/carpets if the attacker doesnt have to deal with a lot of extra zoc costs from little units.



Michael T -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 3:43:47 AM)

+1 x 10000000000000



Tarhunnas -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 7:58:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Have the Devs/Playtesters looked at not having zocs for anything under a division in size? It might make things a little more difficult to conduct delaying actions/carpets if the attacker doesnt have to deal with a lot of extra zoc costs from little units.


Yes, I think that should be explored. It doesn't feel totally logical that brigades/regiments are unable to convert adjacent hexes, but they can defend them against conversion, and they can slow down enemy units just like a division.

Hmmm, conversion, one could think I was talking about a game on the reformation or something [;)]



davetheroad -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 9:23:09 AM)

One thing the germans remained good at even in 1945 was deploying ad-hoc blocking detachments around an officer and a gathering of men. Sometimes these detachments got large enough and survived long enough to be honoured with names! and became Kampfgruppe.

The rear areas of the army contain many thousands of men which may act as a brake on enemy advances.

I think removing the zoc from german regiments may stop this very important hidden capacity.



rolypoly -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 10:18:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: davetheroad

One thing the germans remained good at even in 1945 was deploying ad-hoc blocking detachments around an officer and a gathering of men. Sometimes these detachments got large enough and survived long enough to be honoured with names! and became Kampfgruppe.

The rear areas of the army contain many thousands of men which may act as a brake on enemy advances.

I think removing the zoc from german regiments may stop this very important hidden capacity.


U got point there. Hmm...maybe the zoc-issue should be determined by the unitīs morale / type or something alike. Like in "41, the disorganized red army is desperately trying to retreat from encirclements and could not effectively slow down panzer divisions, but maybe cause _some_ movement penalty -especially to inf-divisions.

I read this book about Rommel which stated that during the invasion of France, Rommel ordered his panzer columns to blind fire to surrounding road where the enemy was believed to be. This move allowed his panzers to roll forward without slowing down. Even without the blind fire, i really doubt that a "41 russian infantry brigade could do much to slow a fast moving pz division.



Mehring -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 10:51:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rolypoly

...maybe the zoc-issue should be determined by the unitīs morale / type or something alike.

read, morale/composition, strength? Would a worn out, low morale infantry division have as much zoc potential as a pristine, high morale tank brigade? Some aspects of the game are already calculated dynamically by an inter-relation of various things. I'd like to see the same for zoc.



rolypoly -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 12:17:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring


quote:

ORIGINAL: rolypoly

...maybe the zoc-issue should be determined by the unitīs morale / type or something alike.

read, morale/composition, strength?


Nope, I ment by type: inf,pz,cav...



Mehring -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 12:38:56 PM)

What about a Tank unit that had lost all its vehicles? If composition doesn't describe what you mean better than ''type' I'll have to disagree. It makes no more sense than the example of the division and brigade I've given above. What things are is immeasurably more important than what they are called, in my view.



rolypoly -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 12:53:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

What about a Tank unit that had lost all its vehicles?.....


[8|]

ok, back to the topic now eh?



Tarhunnas -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 1:00:06 PM)

I agree with Mehring, the "strength" of ZOC should be dependent on strength/morale/supply etc. Many Soviet tank brigades in late 41 for example, are just a few hundred men and 10 tanks. Should they really have the same ZOC as a full strength brigade?



rolypoly -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 1:25:02 PM)

I believe the whole topic is about limiting zoc for ineffective units, instead of toying with words. (maybe the zoc-issue should be determined by the unitīs morale / type or something alike) I didnt mean by that a tank division with 1/10th of full strenght should be just as effective in zoc-rules as long as it got the divisional stamp on it.

K, had to clear that one out. Please proceed [:o]



Jakerson -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 1:40:04 PM)

Not sure about German units but Soviet tank and mobile brigades don’t seem to be able to paint adjacent hexes like divisions can when advancing. They only seem to be able to paint hexes they traveled.

Soviet Infantry Regiments can only advance 2 hexes deep per turn to axis territory so their hex painting ability is not as great as divisions either.




Baelfiin -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 2:54:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

Not sure about German units but Soviet tank and mobile brigades don’t seem to be able to paint adjacent hexes like divisions can when advancing. They only seem to be able to paint hexes they traveled.

Soviet Infantry Regiments can only advance 2 hexes deep per turn to axis territory so their hex painting ability is not as great as divisions either.



That is how it is supposed to work, increased mp cost for less than division size and only in hex "painting" when taking territory.


There has been some concern that the game goes into trench warfare mode in 1942 and behind. No ZOC for less than division size units may offer opportunities for increased fluidity of the front. My original question was if it has been looked at before at some point in developement. I think everything works just fine as it is, but it would be interesting I think to see if a change in ZOC for little units would have an effect.



HRL58 -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 5:10:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I agree with Mehring, the "strength" of ZOC should be dependent on strength/morale/supply etc. Many Soviet tank brigades in late 41 for example, are just a few hundred men and 10 tanks. Should they really have the same ZOC as a full strength brigade?



They could initially have a ZOC (for example to simulate area before recon), but should defenitly shatter when attacked ...and the 1000-men (never-shattering) NKVD sec-units are one of the games biggest problems. Better scale down HQ build ups than have these nkvd-ants around [&:]



Jakerson -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/22/2011 9:50:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HRL58
They could initially have a ZOC (for example to simulate area before recon), but should defenitly shatter when attacked ...and the 1000-men (never-shattering) NKVD sec-units are one of the games biggest problems. Better scale down HQ build ups than have these nkvd-ants around [&:]


Mobile units can escape orderly from overhelming attack especially if they have plenty of fuel. Mobile units should only shatter if they are low on fuel.

Infantry units on the other hands have to drop their weapons and run all directions.




molchomor -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (7/23/2011 9:28:07 AM)

What personally annoys me more is the ability of cut off (zero supply) units being able to exert ZOC over vast areas (cutting several raillines in the process etc.).

For me this is a BUG and should be corrected. OK fine, for the first few turn let them have some ZOC but having ZOC after being encircled 10+ turns, even in mountains,  just becomes silly.



Kulturhund -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (8/8/2011 3:36:25 PM)

On a somewhat related note, I was wondering what happens to a regiment (when a German division is divided into three) somehow gets isolated and forced to surrender, leaving 2 regiments.

Does the lost regiment reform and appear on the western edge as do lost divisions?

Thanks!



Farfarer61 -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (8/8/2011 3:59:16 PM)

They re-appear, so if you use a Regimental defence in the Blizzard, you will need quite a few turns to rail and re-unite the troops come Snow.



Jakerson -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (8/8/2011 6:58:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: molchomor

What personally annoys me more is the ability of cut off (zero supply) units being able to exert ZOC over vast areas (cutting several raillines in the process etc.).

For me this is a BUG and should be corrected. OK fine, for the first few turn let them have some ZOC but having ZOC after being encircled 10+ turns, even in mountains,  just becomes silly.



I dont see this a problem considering how easy it is destroy isolated units if they cant return supply.



DorianGray -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (8/10/2011 4:29:41 PM)

One thing that concerns me about tinkering with Brigade/Regiment ZoC is how it will impact the German '41 advance while facing waves of NKVD regiments.

Do we really want to make those insanely effective NKVD troops even more effective? Would be nice if the Germans had a counter-part to those NKVD regiments for '42+.



JAMiAM -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (8/10/2011 4:48:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

One thing that concerns me about tinkering with Brigade/Regiment ZoC is how it will impact the German '41 advance while facing waves of NKVD regiments.

Do we really want to make those insanely effective NKVD troops even more effective? Would be nice if the Germans had a counter-part to those NKVD regiments for '42+.

It's my understanding that the OP's premise, shared by a fairly large plurality of players, is that the Brigade/Regimental ZOC is too strong, and that it should be reduced, or at least scaled.



Q-Ball -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (8/10/2011 4:56:21 PM)

I am in favor of elminating ZOC for Regts/Bdes. Either way, the NKVD Regts have to be turned into roadkill in 1941. They can singlehandedly slow-up a Panzer Corps.



DorianGray -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (8/10/2011 5:19:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

One thing that concerns me about tinkering with Brigade/Regiment ZoC is how it will impact the German '41 advance while facing waves of NKVD regiments.

Do we really want to make those insanely effective NKVD troops even more effective? Would be nice if the Germans had a counter-part to those NKVD regiments for '42+.

It's my understanding that the OP's premise, shared by a fairly large plurality of players, is that the Brigade/Regimental ZOC is too strong, and that it should be reduced, or at least scaled.


Thanks for the clarification.

In that case, I am in agreement in reducing ZoC for brigade / regiments. Perhaps something based on CS of the brigade / regiment would be most appropriate? I'm thinking of some of the elite brigade / regiments that are, at least on-par, with some divisions. ( like Lehr, GD, etc )

I can see those maintaining ZoC.

But for adhoc 10-man regiments maintaining ZoC over adjacent hexes in a game of this scale is not proper.



Jakerson -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (8/10/2011 5:31:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

One thing that concerns me about tinkering with Brigade/Regiment ZoC is how it will impact the German '41 advance while facing waves of NKVD regiments.

Do we really want to make those insanely effective NKVD troops even more effective? Would be nice if the Germans had a counter-part to those NKVD regiments for '42+.



Germans could break up eatch of their infantry divisions into 3 regiments so they could have tons of regiments if they want to.



DorianGray -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (8/10/2011 5:41:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

One thing that concerns me about tinkering with Brigade/Regiment ZoC is how it will impact the German '41 advance while facing waves of NKVD regiments.

Do we really want to make those insanely effective NKVD troops even more effective? Would be nice if the Germans had a counter-part to those NKVD regiments for '42+.



Germans could break up eatch of their infantry divisions into 3 regiments so they could have tons of regiments if they want to.


Are they as effective as the NKVD units based on their CS? From my experiences it seems that the NKVD troops are overwhelming difficult to route / shatter in proportion to their strength. From the GE perspective, it is easier to route / shatter other RU formations that are many times more powerful than the NKVD units.

While the NKVD regiments tend to bleed-off much needed GE MPs to just require them to be hit again.... and again....

But perhaps I am wrong in my perceptions?



Ketza -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (8/10/2011 5:48:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

One thing that concerns me about tinkering with Brigade/Regiment ZoC is how it will impact the German '41 advance while facing waves of NKVD regiments.

Do we really want to make those insanely effective NKVD troops even more effective? Would be nice if the Germans had a counter-part to those NKVD regiments for '42+.



Germans could break up eatch of their infantry divisions into 3 regiments so they could have tons of regiments if they want to.


Are they as effective as the NKVD units based on their CS? From my experiences it seems that the NKVD troops are overwhelming difficult to route / shatter in proportion to their strength. From the GE perspective, it is easier to route / shatter other RU formations that are many times more powerful than the NKVD units.

While the NKVD regiments tend to bleed-off much needed GE MPs to just require them to be hit again.... and again....

But perhaps I am wrong in my perceptions?


Your not wrong. Those pesky NKVD regiments in the hands of a seasoned Soviet player can make a huge difference in the first few turns of the game.



Jakerson -> RE: Brigade/Regiment ZoC (8/10/2011 5:57:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray
Are they as effective as the NKVD units based on their CS? From my experiences it seems that the NKVD troops are overwhelming difficult to route / shatter in proportion to their strength. From the GE perspective, it is easier to route / shatter other RU formations that are many times more powerful than the NKVD units.

While the NKVD regiments tend to bleed-off much needed GE MPs to just require them to be hit again.... and again....

But perhaps I am wrong in my perceptions?


Yes German regiments are I dont remember being ever able to shatter any German units not even one while playing Soviet side not even in 1944 campaing where Soviets can attack with overhelming odds. Sometimes my attacking CV have been a lot larger that what German can get in 41.

Is there any Soviet player around who have been able to shatter German unit?



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