That dang Soviet speedbump line... (Full Version)

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nedcorleone1 -> That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/22/2011 4:23:41 PM)

I just hate how the Soviets get enough units, even if they are underpowered, to completely make a solid wall of troops that span the map vertically. Its making it very difficult to drive the Panzers forward to make any kind of encirclement. Sometimes I'll breech the line with my Panzers and infantry to setup a thrust for my next turn only to be met with a new wall of Soviet units.

/endrant



Empire101 -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/22/2011 5:04:38 PM)

Yep, thats the pain in the neck alright...you just have to keep chomping at it [X(]



molchomor -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/22/2011 5:05:15 PM)

Sounds like a game against the Soviet AI ?

I posted screenshots awhile ago on my attack into a completely empty Caucaus only to be encircled by 100+ warped units the next turn (many corps sized, and very few empty shell units as most had CVs of 3+).

I believe the warping/teleporting abilities by the AI has been nerfed a bit since then (?), but the unlimited creation ability by the AI has not AFAIK, it still has more or less unlimited APs.

WHAT THIS MEANS: You will have to commit alot more of your panzers in a major offensive than against a human opponent. Often all of your mobile units in fact. This because the AI will never lack units to put up a wall in front of you.



Empire101 -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/22/2011 5:17:22 PM)

Well I'm playing a human opponent, and it seems to be the same at the moment, riverline after riverline of troops. [;)]



nedcorleone1 -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/22/2011 5:43:29 PM)

It just irks me how the Soviets can have enough troops to put up what seems like an infinite line of troops. No matter how big of a bulge I create, he just fills them in indefinitely while I begin to run short on troops. And yes this is the AI I am talking about here. [;)] I can't seem to gain any momentum after Turn 4. Its turned into a slug fest as Empire101 stated (chomping at the line). I hate hate hate this type of strategy but I feel like my hands are tied by the sheer amount of units the SU gets. I try to make headway, a buildup for penetration and the beginnings of a piercing in the line only to be met with yet MORE troops. I want to pocket them not rout them. *sigh* My Panzers can't keep taking those kinds of losses... those poor guys.



lenin -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/22/2011 7:54:58 PM)

You are trying to exterminate a vast country of hundreds of millions of people. I'm sure a few of them will try to get in your way.....One thing the soviets were never short of was people...



gradenko2k -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/22/2011 8:08:46 PM)

If the AI has infinite AP, then does that mean that a strategy of unit destruction will not work against it, since it'll always be able to create as many Rifle Corps as it desires?



molchomor -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/22/2011 8:21:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

If the AI has infinite AP, then does that mean that a strategy of unit destruction will not work against it, since it'll always be able to create as many Rifle Corps as it desires?



That is correct. Creating pockets and cap manpower centres seems the only way to (slowly) hurt the Soviet AI, atleast in the '42 campaign. If you take a look at the stockpiled resources the Ai has, he will not run out of anything anytime during the war even if you cap lots of resource, oil, fuel, armaments.




mmarquo -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/22/2011 8:43:39 PM)

The trick is not to attack everywhere, but to have a plan to get to somewhere meaningful...like the VP cities...



Joel Billings -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/23/2011 12:29:53 AM)

It doesn't have infinite AP, AFAIK, what it has is the ability to create a minimum number of units without paying APs for them if you are using a Logistics Help level of 110 or more for the Soviet AI. This is documented in the rules. Are you playing with 110 (challenging level) help?



nedcorleone1 -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/23/2011 12:36:53 AM)

Joel thanks for popping in. I'm actually using a CUSTOM configuration with 100 across the board for GE and 90 across the board for SU. I'm not knocking the game at all really, though the whole 'teleporting' of units thing is a bit frustrating. I need to get to the point where I can play against a human opponent I suppose. Its hard to commit to something like that with school and work and such. I just can't seem to breakthrough the Soviet defenses. Granted I'm only on Turn 8 for a more serious game (played a stupid-easy campaign for learning the basics and it was a joke cutting through SU troops like butter [:D]). I need to try procuring a bit more mass so to speak at a juncture and try another breakthrough, one that I can perhaps exploit a bit more. I just have a feeling a brand new wall of troops are going to stop me in my tracks again. Oh the frustration...!



Mark43 -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/23/2011 1:24:45 AM)

I under stand your frustartion I have gotten as far as 3 hexes from Moscow and run out of steam due to the ever ready new line of SU. I have restarted my times and I have learned that if I try to encircle a group of units all they do is pull back, so I am trying to use this to my advantage. I have found that all I have to do is attempt to encircle a group of units and the SU retreats back to a new defensive line. I have taken Velikie Luki and Smolensk this way and I have actually encircled 9 infantry divisions in Kiev this way. I am having trouble getting to Leningrad due to the number of SU but I have not given up.



Joel Billings -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/23/2011 1:25:12 AM)

In the early turns you have to move fast. Also, remember to attack with infantry and use armor to penetrate and encircle. You have to be constantry breaking through and forcing the Soviets to pull back (and or actually surrounding units so you can finish them off when isolated). Don't forget to use HQ buildup in some cases to give your armor the MPs to execute some of the bigger breakthroughs. Have fun and good luck.



molchomor -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/23/2011 9:21:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

It doesn't have infinite AP, AFAIK, what it has is the ability to create a minimum number of units without paying APs for them if you are using a Logistics Help level of 110 or more for the Soviet AI. This is documented in the rules. Are you playing with 110 (challenging level) help?


Nope, played with default settings. But I still am of the opinion that the AI has more or less unlimited APs.
If you look into the save I posted in the tech forum thread you'll see that during the 2.5 years of the '42 campaign, the Soviet AI lost 450 corps + alot of other units. It must also have a couple of hundred additional corps on the line as well, as the AI is still strong and healthy. Now, I'm unsure on the APs it would take to create such a mass of units, all I can say is that after crunching a big pocket with 70+ units, a few turns later the AI is up to its old strength again, so it for sure never has any lack of units to funnel its unlimited resources into. And it takes APs to create most of those units, right ?
With unlimited resources I mean everything except manpower seems unlimited, again if you open that save from my active tech thread and have a look at the Soviet arm, oil, fuel, resource pools you will see that, despite the Soviets having lost so many strategic centres, their resources are still basically unlimited which I would call a megabug.



Tarhunnas -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/23/2011 12:50:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lenin

You are trying to exterminate a vast country of hundreds of millions of people. I'm sure a few of them will try to get in your way.....One thing the soviets were never short of was people...


Yes, but one should not assume that Soviet population is inexhaustible. The Soviet Union had a population of about 200 million in 1940, compared to Germany 80 million. That is only 2.5 times as much. Germany of course fought on many fronts, the Soviet union only on one, but OTOH there were the Axis minor allies. All I want to say is that the difference is not infinite.



JocMeister -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/23/2011 1:27:18 PM)

I can´t remember from the top of my head but I think Glantz wrote that the Soviets also suffred from a quite severe manpower shortage from 43-44 and onwards? Might have been in "when titans clashed"? Whover it was that wrote it pointed it out on several occations. Also claiming this more or less forced the Soviet to rely even more on Mech and Tank forces later in the war.

So if the german player causes historical or bigger soviet losses it should cause a manpower problem for the Soviets aswell.



JAS Gripen -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/23/2011 5:52:57 PM)

Soviets had women also in arms, not to mention a zillion support jobs that aryan women were not allowed into.




Jakerson -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/23/2011 8:33:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Yes, but one should not assume that Soviet population is inexhaustible. The Soviet Union had a population of about 200 million in 1940, compared to Germany 80 million. That is only 2.5 times as much. Germany of course fought on many fronts, the Soviet union only on one, but OTOH there were the Axis minor allies. All I want to say is that the difference is not infinite.


Soviet Union also used Women’s as Soldiers, Fighter Pilots and Snipers in large numbers. While Nazi Germany had strategy that women’s place is home only and used men only.

So Soviet Union had 5 times more Soldiers when you count womens too. Some of the best snipers and fighter pilots in Soviet army where womens.

Nazi Germany had 5-6 Million men they could use as Soldiers while Soviet union could have easily bring 25-35 million men and womens to arms.




Aurelian -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 2:31:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

It just irks me how the Soviets can have enough troops to put up what seems like an infinite line of troops. No matter how big of a bulge I create, he just fills them in indefinitely while I begin to run short on troops. And yes this is the AI I am talking about here. [;)] I can't seem to gain any momentum after Turn 4. Its turned into a slug fest as Empire101 stated (chomping at the line). I hate hate hate this type of strategy but I feel like my hands are tied by the sheer amount of units the SU gets. I try to make headway, a buildup for penetration and the beginnings of a piercing in the line only to be met with yet MORE troops. I want to pocket them not rout them. *sigh* My Panzers can't keep taking those kinds of losses... those poor guys.


No matter how many men [the Russians] lost, there seemed always to be fresh reserves. No matter how many tanks were destroyed in battle,
the next morning brought waves of tanks from a seemingly inexhaustable supply. No matter how fiercely the Luftwaffe fought in the air, the
day following brought waves of new Russian fighters and ground-attack planes. No matter how many supplies were destroyed, how much
artillery was wiped out or captured-there was always more.
Martin Caidin, Te Tigers Are Burning, pg. 225



nedcorleone1 -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 3:47:15 AM)

Oh absolutely I agree and I'm familiar with my history on this aspect of the war. However, I'm sure the SU was not able to teleport these troops into a solid line as fast as the game seems to allow. I understand that each turn represents a considerable amount of time but it just seems unrealistic that the 'solid line' formation would occur indefinitely. Because of this it really causes the exciting momentum of the game to turn in to a slow crawl as any dynamic and fluidity on the battlefield is stifled. In the end it just boils down to the fact that I need to play a human opponent to get this type of game. I'm not knocking the game at all really and I've enjoyed it immensely thus far. I just need to get those Panzers rolling again but after Turn 6 or so that opportunity just doesn't seem to make itself known.



sveint -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 3:56:19 AM)

How many more threads do we need complaining about the Soviets?

Play the Soviets against Germany then.



nedcorleone1 -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 4:09:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

How many more threads do we need complaining about the Soviets?

Play the Soviets against Germany then.



Hey thanks for the valuable and relevant reply. I first started playing this game as the Soviets and definitely could not recreate what the AI is doing... not even close. Also, would you rather me 'complain' about something else? Last I saw this forum has these links that you can CHOOSE to click on. You have all the freedom in the world to just skip over this thread. Apparently you chose to invest the effort in not only reading this thread but also clicking on the 'Reply' button and wasting your keystrokes. Interesting. Peace be with you and perhaps I'll see you in another thread, one more of your liking. [8D]



Panama -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 4:17:31 AM)

The Germans wargamed the invasion of the Sovier Union several times. Even when they stacked the deck in their favor they failed to achieve their objectives which were Leiningrad, Ukaine and Moscow, in that order. The distances and logistics were just impossible to overcome. They would always end up in front of Moscow with no reserves, exhausted and over extended. Why the heck they went ahead with it was crazy. Of course Hitler was a genius so he knew better.

Anyway, you will most probably do better than they did speed bumps or no speed bumps.



sveint -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 4:22:40 AM)

I meant no insult. But every other thread complains about the Soviets.

I do suggest you start a game as the Soviets and you'll get a much better feel for their capabilities. 1941 right now is quite balanced (historical), except perhaps for the fall of Leningrad (advantage Axis).



nedcorleone1 -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 4:23:58 AM)

Yeah, the Germans likely knew they couldn't win logistically but they really hoped for winning that diplomatic war and forcing a premature surrender from the Soviets. Boy did they underestimate the will of the Soviet people. Same thing with England right? I mean Hitler wanted to bomb them into submission and draw out a surrender that way since Sealion was cancelled. Winston Churchill was like a rock in a time of disarray. The will of the people caused Hitler to run out of gas.



Wild -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 6:32:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

I meant no insult. But every other thread complains about the Soviets.

I do suggest you start a game as the Soviets and you'll get a much better feel for their capabilities. 1941 right now is quite balanced (historical), except perhaps for the fall of Leningrad (advantage Axis).



Every other thread complains about the Soviets because as of this moment in time they are overpowered (more so in '42). It is therefore important to have these types of threads to bring up all these issues so the balance can be gotten right.



Monter_Trismegistos -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 10:07:24 AM)

So why people capture Leningrad (which historically was impossible), if Soviets are overpowered?



Wild -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 2:24:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

So why people capture Leningrad (which historically was impossible), if Soviets are overpowered?



In real life the capture of Lenningrad was a near run thing, and should be quite possible if players choose to prioritize it by sending more forces than historical to capture it. Which is what most players do.

You don't have much of an argument there i'm afraid.



Scook_99 -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 7:23:43 PM)

You can capture both Leningrad and Moscow in 1941 as Germany and you will still have a really rough time from 1942 on.



Ketza -> RE: That dang Soviet speedbump line... (7/24/2011 7:39:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

I meant no insult. But every other thread complains about the Soviets.

I do suggest you start a game as the Soviets and you'll get a much better feel for their capabilities. 1941 right now is quite balanced (historical), except perhaps for the fall of Leningrad (advantage Axis).


After playing several games as the Soviets I came to the conclusion Axis players are nuts.

Me being one of them [:D]



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