History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (Full Version)

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ADB123 -> History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 1:42:52 AM)

The post about Japanese CV TFs getting torched by Catalinas raised a couple of questions in my mind:

1 - How many Japanese combat ships were hit by Catalina-launched torpedoes in WW II?

2 - How many Japanese non-combat ships were hit by Catalina-launched torpedoes in WW II?

Thx



Alfred -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 1:47:39 AM)

To which an important point to remember is how many times did Japanese admirals operate in enemy dominated LBA areas.

Alfred



ADB123 -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 1:57:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

To which an important point to remember is how many times did Japanese admirals operate in enemy dominated LBA areas.

Alfred


In the Solomons, PNG, Midway, Philippines, DEI, Northern Oz, Bay of Bengal, and others in 1942. There were Cats in all of those theaters.

Maybe the question should be where did the US fly Cats with torpedoes instead of bombs, and did they hit any targets with them?





Mynok -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 2:57:51 AM)


Search Black Cats....I think they were the primary Cat group that used torps. There's a nice site on them. I'm just too lazy and sleepy to google it for you. Wield your google-fu bravely and find your answers! [:D]



ADB123 -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 3:46:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Search Black Cats....I think they were the primary Cat group that used torps. There's a nice site on them. I'm just too lazy and sleepy to google it for you. Wield your google-fu bravely and find your answers! [:D]



Ah, good call! I found this site amongst others:

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/blackcat/

From what I can find in scanning the site above, as well as some USN photo references, Cats did night torpedo attacks at the Battle of Midway and once in the Solomons. It appears that most other night attacks were with bombs. There were a few daylight attacks with bombs during the fall of the Philippines, but the general view that I've read is that Cats were too slow to use for attacks during the daylight and so weren't - USAAF bombers were used instead.

So my assessment from what I read is that Cats could be used with torpedoes, but they rarely were, and not in the daylight.

Maybe the Game should be modified so that torpedoes are only a Night option for Catalinas.

As far as my Game experience as Japanese goes, I've found that CAPPING TFs with low altitude CAP discourages Allied players from trying too many Cat torpedo attacks early on.



Mynok -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 3:52:52 AM)


That's the site! Well done. My assessment is as yours, but I'm not overly worried about it, even though I do play exclusively Japan. I can count on well less than one hand the number of ships of any type I've lost to any Cat torp attack. In numerous games.




bradfordkay -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 4:27:55 AM)

Rather than asking to have the game coded to prevent this, you might want to think about this: PBY replacement numbers are so low in AE that any allied player making heavy use of this will soon be without his best search aircraft. If he wishes to throw them away in a one-shot deal (or at least one shot every six months or so), then that should be up to him. 



oldman45 -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 4:36:30 AM)

The only time you can really get away with it and make it viable it when you are playing against the AI. A human player would ensure your cats are butchered.



wdolson -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 5:14:56 AM)

Even against the AI, using Cats this way will sink a number of Japanese ships early on, but the Allies will be very poor on search assets until 1943 at least.  I used the Cats as torpedo bombers in early 42 and losses were so high I didn't have all my Cat squadrons up to full strength again until around April 43.  I barely used them at all for the rest of 42.  This was against the AI.

That's the reason the USN didn't use the PBY heavily against shipping.  They were too valuable as search planes and too vulnerable in the torpedo role.

Bill



spence -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 5:33:50 PM)

Don't the Mavis' and Emily's carry torpedoes also? If so the option to throw away one's long range search planes on that type of mission exists for both players.




Sredni -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 5:34:52 PM)

I've always wondered why the USN didn't produce more catalina's. There's never enough in game to even have decent coverage for nav S and asw until later in the war. Certainly never enough to make use of them offensively. Given their range you'd think they'd be the ideal naval attack craft for targets of opportunity. Just flood an area with them and ensure any shipping that didn't have fighter cover was sent to the bottom.

I've often wished I could put a 40 plane catalina group somewhere to interdict shipping over a large area like the ai does with betties and nells. They don't need to attack shipping directly at truk and get killed by cap, just for hundreds of miles around truk where land based cap has a hard time providing cover.



vonTirpitz -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 5:46:40 PM)

I would recommend Creeds' PBY: The Catalina Flying Boat. This book has just about everything you wanted to know regarding the PBY including difficulties in appropriations and production.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

I've always wondered why the USN didn't produce more catalina's. There's never enough in game to even have decent coverage for nav S and asw until later in the war. Certainly never enough to make use of them offensively. Given their range you'd think they'd be the ideal naval attack craft for targets of opportunity. Just flood an area with them and ensure any shipping that didn't have fighter cover was sent to the bottom.

I've often wished I could put a 40 plane catalina group somewhere to interdict shipping over a large area like the ai does with betties and nells. They don't need to attack shipping directly at truk and get killed by cap, just for hundreds of miles around truk where land based cap has a hard time providing cover.




mdiehl -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 5:52:12 PM)

One successful daylight torpedo attack (out of one attempt) during October-November '42 out of Guadalcanal. If you count submarines sunk by Cat torpedoes in daylight attacks I'd bet you can come up with several examples in 1944-45. And many of the BCs attacks on surface vessels were daylight or twilight attacks.

It would be historically incorrect to restrict USN PBY torpedo attacks to night attacks or to Black Cat squadrons. Almost all Catalina drivers were trained in the use of PBYs as torpedo bombers. For the most part, however, PBYs were too valuable as ASW and recon assets to regularly send them out after escorted targets during the early war.



mdiehl -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 6:04:37 PM)

http://www.pimaair.org/collection-detail.php?cid=172

The limit on PBY production had to do with Consolidated being tasked to ramp up production to make lots of B-24s. As the war progressed, the USN pressed modified B-24s into service and found that their superior range made them, in some ways, better recon and ASW assets than PBYs. Amphib capability was, however, still needed for Dumbo missions (rescue at sea). To augment production, the USN turned to Martin Aircraft corp for the PBM, one of which is pictured in the link provided above.



crsutton -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 6:21:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Search Black Cats....I think they were the primary Cat group that used torps. There's a nice site on them. I'm just too lazy and sleepy to google it for you. Wield your google-fu bravely and find your answers! [:D]



Ah, good call! I found this site amongst others:



http://www.daveswarbirds.com/blackcat/

From what I can find in scanning the site above, as well as some USN photo references, Cats did night torpedo attacks at the Battle of Midway and once in the Solomons. It appears that most other night attacks were with bombs. There were a few daylight attacks with bombs during the fall of the Philippines, but the general view that I've read is that Cats were too slow to use for attacks during the daylight and so weren't - USAAF bombers were used instead.

So my assessment from what I read is that Cats could be used with torpedoes, but they rarely were, and not in the daylight.

Maybe the Game should be modified so that torpedoes are only a Night option for Catalinas.

As far as my Game experience as Japanese goes, I've found that CAPPING TFs with low altitude CAP discourages Allied players from trying too many Cat torpedo attacks early on.


Yep, I had some early success with them but found they were just too valuable to lose to CAP traps, so pretty much gave it up



spence -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 8:05:34 PM)

quote:

I've often wished I could put a 40 plane catalina group somewhere to interdict shipping over a large area like the ai does with betties and nells. They don't need to attack shipping directly at truk and get killed by cap, just for hundreds of miles around truk where land based cap has a hard time providing cover.


That is exactly what the PB4Y-1s and PB4Y-2s and to some extent all the other USN Patrol Bombers did. They mostly left the massed raids on harbors and such to the USAAF and then hunted down merchant shipping around the major Japanese bases. And IRL they did a much better job of it than the Netties ever did (using bombs).



wdolson -> RE: History Question - How Many Japanese Combat Ships were hit by Torpedoes launched by Catalinas? (7/30/2011 11:22:06 PM)

My parents remember articles in the paper about the cost of the PBY before the war.  There was a lot of controversy about building such an expensive airplane.  I think they were more expensive than B-17s at the time.

Early in the war there was a lot of effort to look at all sorts of aircraft on floats to support forward bases.  In the end units like the CBs made the need for float aircraft at forward bases unnecessary because airstrips for land aircraft could be built quickly and almost anywhere.  A lot of float planes like the Wild Catfish (F4F float fighter) and the float version of the C-47 became prototype oddities and little else.  The great need for PBYs seen early in the war was filled by patrol squadrons flying PB4Ys which had better range, higher cruising and top speeds, better protection (more guns), and could carry a substantially larger bomb load. 

I believe the PB4Y was also cheaper to produce.  If not cheaper, it was definitely easier to come by since Consolidated was making so many for the USAAF.

Bill



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