RE: Proto-Shokaku (Full Version)

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John 3rd -> RE: Proto-Shokaku (8/7/2011 5:26:22 AM)

The original Sho and Zui displaced 25,675T. The new CV would fit into the tonnage allowed so the question comes as to how they would be different? I'd say keep it about the same 22,000T, be slightly slower (31Kts), and with slightly less range. Make the complement of aircraft smaller at 69 planes (21 Zero, 24 Val, 24 Kate) when the war starts. This ship would not have to be rebuilt, changed, and redesigned as Ryujo and that alone might save a good chunk of the money her added cost would need.

As to some form of Scout Cruiser for the CVs. Why bother with a cruiser and simply substitute a smaller CS carrying 12 or so floatplanes. Chiyoda/Chitose displaced 11,000T, had 24 Floatplanes with 4 Catapults, 2x2 127MM guns, and 29 Knots speed. Here we could build at 7,000T, carry 12 Floatplanes with 2 Catapults, use a GOOD 2x2 set of DP guns, and make 28-30 Knots.

The larger CS (Chiyoda, Chitose, Mizuho, and Nisshin) are still built but as a CLASS of ship. The first pair come in 1938 and the second pair in 1941/1942. These would be uniform design and all could be converted to CVL.

While being converted the newer, smaller CS could takeover the Scouting for the CVs. Could build 2 in 3rd Circle and 2 more in 4th. These would be new ships but of a fairly tried and true design on a fairly small platform.



John 3rd -> 2nd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 5:37:05 AM)

In 1934 the Japanese put into effect their Second Circle Plan. The ships are to be:

ORIGINAL PLAN:

CAs Tone and Chikuma

CVs Soryu and half-sister Hiryu

14 DD (4 Shiratsuyu/10 Asashio

16 TB (Otori-Class)

4 SS (2 Type A/2 Type B)

AS Chitose, Chiyoda and 1/2 sister Mizuho

4 Subchasers

2 AO (Tsurugizaki, and Takasaki

AR Akashi

REVAMPED PLAN:
CVs Hiryu and Soryu built wholly as sister ships at Hiryu Specifications.

Two Mogami-Kai CA

14 DD (Asashio-Class)

16 Torpedo Boats (Improved-Otori Class to add to what FatR described in the coming creation of a Coastal Command HQ)

4 Glen I-Boats

Chitose-Class AS: Chitose, Chiyoda, and Mizuho

Add 3 Fleet Oilers of the Tsurugizaki-Class and dispose of the 4 Subchasers

AR Akashi

We see uniformity of building here as there are simple one class of ship in each building area. This has the effect of saving time, money, and improves efficiency.



John 3rd -> 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 6:02:05 AM)

The Treaty days are gone and the Fleet starts its course towards war:

ORIGINAL PLAN
2 Yamato-Class BB (Yamato/Musashi)

2 Shokaku-CLass CV (Sho and Zui)

ML NIsshin

3 ML (Tsugaru, Hatsutaka, Aotaka

4 Shimushu Escorts

4 Gunboats

18 Kagero DD (3 served as dummy ships for $$$ to Yamato)

14 I-Boats (2A, 6B, 5C, 1 Experimental)

1 MSW

Support Ships: Kashino (AKE), Tsukushi, Irako (AKE)

5 ML

9 Subchasers

2 Training Cruisers (Katori/Kashima

REVAMPED PLAN
BBs Owari and Kii (3x3 16", 42,000T, Speed 28-30)

CVs Shokaku and Zuikaku

CAs 2 Mogami-Kai

Nisshin laid down as a Chitose CS

Add 2 small CS of the new design (2 new ships)

3 ML (Tsugaru, Hatsutaka, Aotaka)

4 DE for Coastal Command

4 Gunboats

18 Kagero with ALL 18 being built (gain 3 ships)

18 SS of Medium Size (gain 4)

1 MSW

Support Ships: Kashino (AKE), Tsukushi, Irako (AKE)

5 ML

9 Subchasers


3rd Circle would see the addition of 2 Mogami-Kai, 2 smaller CS, 3 DDs being built for real, and 4 extra SS of new design. Would take out the PG, MSW and SC for a decent set of escorts for Coastal Command.



John 3rd -> 4th Circle Plan (8/7/2011 6:15:37 AM)

War is here and now:

ORIGINAL:
BBs Yamato and Musashi

CV Taiho

4 CLs of Agano-Class

2 CLs of the Oyodo-Class

Katori-Training Cruiser

1 ML

Combat Support Ship--Sunosaki

Seaplane Tender Akitsushima

24 DD (6 Moon, 4 Kagero, 13 Yugumo, 1 Shimakaze)

26 SS (1 A, 15 B, 10 KD)

1 ML

Combat Support Ship--Sunosaki

Seaplane Tender Akitsushima

6 MSW

9 ML

4 Subchasers

Support: Hashima, 2 Food Supply Ships

REVAMPED
2 BBs (Musashi and Shinano) same class as Owari and Kii

2 Shokaku-Kai

2 Mogami-Kai CA

2 smaller CS

1 ML

Combat Support Ship--Sunosaki

Seaplane Tender Akitsushima

28 DD (10 Moon, 18 Yugumo)

31 Medium Cruiser SS

1 ML

Combat Support Ship--Sunosaki

Seaplane Tender Akitsushima

6 MSW

9 ML

4 Subchasers

Support: Hashima, 2 Food Supply Ships


Don't build the 6 Agano/Oyodo-CL as well as the Traning-Class CL. No Shinano and no Taiho.

Build two modern BBs w/3x3 16" guns, 2 proven designed CV, a pair of CAs, 2 more small CS, 4 more DD, and 5 more SS.




bigred -> RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod (8/7/2011 7:30:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

That is some solid thinking. Let me mull it over some before responding.

Anybody else got thoughts or reactions to what we've been chatting about?


Hi John. I am reading the thread from the beginning. What do u think about incorporation of the RHS varient where the USSR starts the game at war w/ japan, is in a neutral state unless the IJA pulls too many units out of marchuria? Instead of a Jap garrison requirement it is more of a real life type situation!


Hey BigRed!

My standard reaction is "I HATE China and USSR!" What do people think of this thought?



My response is "in a no rules game a neutral USSR will keep the Manchuko garrison in check".



bigred -> RE:Cryptanalytic influences on the treaty (8/7/2011 7:52:34 AM)

I wondered why the japs cut a bad deal for themselves at the washington naval treaty.
quote:

Cryptanalytic influences on the treaty

What was unknown to the participants in the Conference was that the American "Black Chamber" (the Cypher Bureau, a US intelligence service), under Herbert Yardley, was spying on the delegations' communications to and from their home capitals. In particular, Japanese communications were thoroughly penetrated, and American negotiators were able to get the minimum possible deal the Japanese had indicated they would accept, and below which they would leave the Conference. As this ratio value was unpopular with much of the Imperial Japanese Navy, and with the increasingly active and important ultranationalist groups, the value the Japanese Government accepted was the cause of much suspicion and accusation among Japanese between politicians and Naval officers.



Seems the japs and Brits had their backs against the wall caused by US production.

quote:


from: Wiki, Rise and Fall of the Great Powers-Paul kennedy,p149
By this time, the United States had surpassed the British in both industrial growth rates and total industrial capacity. By 1900, the leaders in industrial production were the U.S. with 24% of the world total, followed by Britain (19%), Germany (13%), Russia (9%) and France (7%). [4]. Therefore, the British could not outproduce the United States in the long term, let alone the United States and Japan combined as dictated by their two-power standard. Signing up to the treaty enabled them to maintain parity with the US navy for two decades without having to engage in a potentially ruinous arms race and maintain large fleet of obsolescent warships.


So the japs had to cut a bad deal or face unrestricted US shipbuilding. And the american negotiators knew the IJN bottom line.



FatR -> RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod (8/7/2011 10:07:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Hey BigRed!

My standard reaction is "I HATE China and USSR!" What do people think of this thought?

Realistically there is no chance at all of USSR involvement, barring a direct Japanese attack, until at least late 1943. Manchukuo garrizon requirements are just a game-balancing measure. I'm against starting with active USSR, it makes the situation too dangerous for Japan.



FatR -> RE: Built or Building Japanese Cruisers (8/7/2011 10:09:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
You had highly specific stats regarding those guns. Where did you get the info? Would love that source! [8D]

I took the data on the number of produced guns from navweaps.com.



FatR -> RE: Proto-Shokaku (8/7/2011 10:39:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

The original Sho and Zui displaced 25,675T. The new CV would fit into the tonnage allowed so the question comes as to how they would be different? I'd say keep it about the same 22,000T, be slightly slower (31Kts), and with slightly less range. Make the complement of aircraft smaller at 69 planes (21 Zero, 24 Val, 24 Kate) when the war starts. This ship would not have to be rebuilt, changed, and redesigned as Ryujo and that alone might save a good chunk of the money her added cost would need.

This idea is certainly possible in theory, but, in combination with everything else, it gives Japan 9 full CVs at the start, a bit too much, I think. And tonnage wasn't the problem when building Ryujo, money were.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
As to some form of Scout Cruiser for the CVs. Why bother with a cruiser and simply substitute a smaller CS carrying 12 or so floatplanes.

Because a cruiser can also provide anti-air defense functions, and will not become obsolete later in the war, due to inherent deficiencies of search floatplanes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
The larger CS (Chiyoda, Chitose, Mizuho, and Nisshin) are still built but as a CLASS of ship. The first pair come in 1938 and the second pair in 1941/1942. These would be uniform design and all could be converted to CVL.

Yes' let's take the page from alt_naval ideas and build them by a single, simplified design, using half of a Mogam-class cruiser's engines. Carrier conversion will not be originally intended, but present as an option during the war. I'm approving them, because they were quite flexible multipurpose ships, capable of serving as fast and rapidly unloading transports and minelayers as well IRL.

Unfortunately, these ships are way still too expensive to build, with their engines being 5+ times more powerful than those installed on various Army's landing ships and Navy's smaller tenders. Army and Navy cooperate better in this alternative, so, Navy should in early thirties start working on a design of a smaller hull, serving as a basis for various auxliaries and landing ships. I'll take count of ships they can replace and post the proposal later.




FatR -> RE: 2nd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 10:47:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
REVAMPED PLAN:
CVs Hiryu and Soryu built wholly as sister ships at Hiryu Specifications.

I'm agaist skipping the RL process of trial and error to arrive straight to the desired result/

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rdTwo Mogami-Kai CA

14 DD (Asashio-Class)

16 Torpedo Boats (Improved-Otori Class to add to what FatR described in the coming creation of a Coastal Command HQ)

My alternative is predicated on eliminating even the existing Otori production. No more torpedo boats should be built. There capabilities are too limited.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rdAdd 3 Fleet Oilers of the Tsurugizaki-Class

Where are money for that? Even existing ships of this shadow-class are eliminated to make room for building an extra pair of carriers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rdand dispose of the 4 Subchasers

Better keep them, not much expense anyway.






FatR -> RE: 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 11:00:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

REVAMPED PLAN
BBs Owari and Kii (3x3 16", 42,000T, Speed 28-30)

CVs Shokaku and Zuikaku

+2 extra Hiryu-class CVs in place of Shoho's and Zuiho's shadow originals.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Add 2 small CS of the new design (2 new ships)

See above why these should be cruisers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
3 ML (Tsugaru, Hatsutaka, Aotaka)

Tsugaru is replaced by Tatsuta's rebuild to save money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
4 DE for Coastal Command

$$$?

Anyway, I think it is too early for the final plan. We haven't finished with destroyers yet and hadn't discussed subs or auxilaries.




FatR -> RE: 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 12:15:20 PM)

Continuing with DDs.

So, we have 6 Hatsuharu, 6 Shiratsuyu, 14 Asashio, 20 Kagero (equal to RL Yugumos) laid down by second half of 1940, when Japan enters the stage of immediate war preparations. This is not ehough, considering reduction in CLs and torpedo capabilities of old DDs. At this stage IJN must worry not about escort destroyers (which are relatively plentiful anyway), but about lack of the frontline combatants. On the other hand, the new 127/50 DP gun meant for the new generation of destroyers isn't quite ready yet, and information from Europe about dangers posed to warships by LBA should be already available, making building new destroyers with the old 127/50 Type 3 questionable.

At this stage, using experience gained by building and reconstructing ships according to the previous part of my program, plus designs that were pondered for a long time, due to expectations of a longer war, Naval Ministry produces a plan of building a war emergency series of destroyers and other ships, replacing 5 Yugumos (from Kazegumo to Takanami) and first 3 Akizukis in the yards. The design of the war emergency destroyer should based on Shiratsuyu design with the same gun and torpedo armament, but simplified whenever possible, with shorter hull and slightly less speed. 10 ships should be laid down, with 2-3 of them available before the start of hostilities, thanks to their faster building, and others available in 1942.
However, the most cunning part of this project is that the same basic hull (with reduced machinery and other necessary changes) will be used to build other ships, necessary for the approaching war. First of them will be fast landing ships, capable of carrying Daihatsu barges, initially envisioned to serve in the vanguard of the invasion forces, which later quickly find their use as a part of various Tokyo Expresses, freeing real destroyers for other tasks. The first series will number about 6 of these APDs (2-3 available at the beginning), with mass building starting in late 1942.
In addition, a couple of fast minelayers, arriving in late 1942 - early 1943, will use this template as well (mine warfare will get more attention according to the premise).

Once the new 127/50 gun is available, start building Kagero derivatives, carrying six of them. No Shimakaze and no dedicated AA destroyers (as these will be used as normal DDs anyway). These ships will start arriving from about December of 1942. Assuming that the development of their gun is reasonably successful (this is, admittedly, a favorable assumption), and seeing as survived prototype of the Type 5 single had about the same weight as Type 3 single mountings (even though many details were noticed to be heavy) they won't be be noticeably larger than Kageros, and definitely smaller than Akizukis. They will replace 20 ships built IRL (10 Yugumo, 9 Akizuki, 1 Shimakaze), and, thanks to hald the ships they will be replacing being extra expensive, I think building at least 24 of this super-Kagero class is not particularly outlandish, even accounting for their new and expensive weapons.

Finally, using experience with Kamikaze conversions, start building Matsus in early 1943, soon after the program of larger war emergency destroyers described above is completed. Try to develop the sixtuple TT for them as soon as possible.

So, how about this program? Note, that I tried to avoid straight increases in the number of ships, even though the mod postulates some economical improvements, at least from later start of the war in China. That's because I think it should be more wise (both from historical and gameplay standpoint) to invest more savings into expanding and refitting industry, so it will be able to crank out much more and better weapons from 1943 onwards. In the program above this is first felt by earlier start of production of the Matsu series and earlier mass production of dedicated APDs.

Alternative variants to the above:

- Just build more Kageros (extra 8 of them) until weapons for super-Kagero are available. On the positive side, this allows to use the same design all the way, on the negative side, AA capabilities will be low. Build dedicated APDs as described.

- Less stripped-down Matsu design, with engines at exactly half the power of big destroyers and 2x2 127/40 armament, instead of normal Matsus. Speed might increase from slightly less than 28 knots to 29-30.



Terminus -> RE: Built or Building Japanese Cruisers (8/7/2011 1:06:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

As far as I know 470 127/40 guns were produced before the war. 104 to arm all carriers, 104 to arm all battleships (including Yamatos), 96 to arm all cruisers that can use Type 89, 18 to seaplane tenders. Even including a few ships I cannot be bothered to count, production exceeds demand by over 100 units. Extra 127/40s in the proposal above, not counting those ordered in place of other modern guns, number only 42 (counting those, 102).

As about the reason why Japanese failed to reequip all their capital ships to 127/40 before the war (besides space and weight limitations on some ships), the most plausible explanation I've heard is lack of funds for upgrade works. Well, the proposal includes cancelling 8 ships to provide funds and extensive use of tubes removed from more valuable ships.


Well, the Akagi and the Furutaka class cruisers all went to war without the 12.7cm, so...



John 3rd -> RE: Built or Building Japanese Cruisers (8/7/2011 2:59:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
You had highly specific stats regarding those guns. Where did you get the info? Would love that source! [8D]

I took the data on the number of produced guns from navweaps.com.


Thanks. I am going to checkout that site. Never seen it before.



Dibbura -> ideas (8/7/2011 3:01:42 PM)

I have some ideas about Japan-German cooperation, as well as a logical development of the Japanese alone. (Not very ahistorical [:)] )
Most of them about ground and air, and only few of them about navy [;)]
Some of them I slowly implementing for my own tests)

And if it’s interesting for you, and my not very good English is not a problem[;)], I can post them.



John 3rd -> RE: Proto-Shokaku (8/7/2011 3:07:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

The original Sho and Zui displaced 25,675T. The new CV would fit into the tonnage allowed so the question comes as to how they would be different? I'd say keep it about the same 22,000T, be slightly slower (31Kts), and with slightly less range. Make the complement of aircraft smaller at 69 planes (21 Zero, 24 Val, 24 Kate) when the war starts. This ship would not have to be rebuilt, changed, and redesigned as Ryujo and that alone might save a good chunk of the money her added cost would need.

This idea is certainly possible in theory, but, in combination with everything else, it gives Japan 9 full CVs at the start, a bit too much, I think. And tonnage wasn't the problem when building Ryujo, money were.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
As to some form of Scout Cruiser for the CVs. Why bother with a cruiser and simply substitute a smaller CS carrying 12 or so floatplanes.

Because a cruiser can also provide anti-air defense functions, and will not become obsolete later in the war, due to inherent deficiencies of search floatplanes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
The larger CS (Chiyoda, Chitose, Mizuho, and Nisshin) are still built but as a CLASS of ship. The first pair come in 1938 and the second pair in 1941/1942. These would be uniform design and all could be converted to CVL.

Yes' let's take the page from alt_naval ideas and build them by a single, simplified design, using half of a Mogam-class cruiser's engines. Carrier conversion will not be originally intended, but present as an option during the war. I'm approving them, because they were quite flexible multipurpose ships, capable of serving as fast and rapidly unloading transports and minelayers as well IRL.

Unfortunately, these ships are way still too expensive to build, with their engines being 5+ times more powerful than those installed on various Army's landing ships and Navy's smaller tenders. Army and Navy cooperate better in this alternative, so, Navy should in early thirties start working on a design of a smaller hull, serving as a basis for various auxliaries and landing ships. I'll take count of ships they can replace and post the proposal later.




1. Nine full CVs at start? My count is Akagi, Atago, new CV, Soryu, Hiryu, Sho, Zui, Shoho, and Zuiho. The Atago would carry 6-9 less planes then Kaga due to the size difference and the new CV would add 21 for a net gain of 13-16 planes. That isn't much at all.

2. Makes sense. We'll go with an Oyodo-like CL.

3. Chiyoda's as one class: agreed.



John 3rd -> RE: 2nd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 3:10:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
REVAMPED PLAN:
CVs Hiryu and Soryu built wholly as sister ships at Hiryu Specifications.

I'm agaist skipping the RL process of trial and error to arrive straight to the desired result/

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rdTwo Mogami-Kai CA

14 DD (Asashio-Class)

16 Torpedo Boats (Improved-Otori Class to add to what FatR described in the coming creation of a Coastal Command HQ)

My alternative is predicated on eliminating even the existing Otori production. No more torpedo boats should be built. There capabilities are too limited.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rdAdd 3 Fleet Oilers of the Tsurugizaki-Class

Where are money for that? Even existing ships of this shadow-class are eliminated to make room for building an extra pair of carriers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rdand dispose of the 4 Subchasers

Better keep them, not much expense anyway.






1. Soryu and Hiryu stay the same. OK.

2. How about replacing the Otori's with something more useful along a DE/Corvette sort of line?

3. $$$ for another AO could come from the ships were are eliminating and/or not having to rebuild/modernize.

4. Subchasers: OK.



John 3rd -> RE: 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 3:16:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

REVAMPED PLAN
BBs Owari and Kii (3x3 16", 42,000T, Speed 28-30)

CVs Shokaku and Zuikaku

+2 extra Hiryu-class CVs in place of Shoho's and Zuiho's shadow originals.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Add 2 small CS of the new design (2 new ships)

See above why these should be cruisers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
3 ML (Tsugaru, Hatsutaka, Aotaka)

Tsugaru is replaced by Tatsuta's rebuild to save money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
4 DE for Coastal Command

$$$?

Anyway, I think it is too early for the final plan. We haven't finished with destroyers yet and hadn't discussed subs or auxilaries.




1. Wow. You want to replace Shoho and Zuiho with a pair of Hiryu's? Damn. I would LOVE that; however, I'll say the same as you. How do we pay for that? Could you justify them based on the being built from the keel up as CVs so you don't pay for the original ship AND then the conversion? Additionally one would have to move their completion date out some with, perhaps, Zuiho being complete at war's start and Shoho coming in some months later.

2. OK on the small CS.

3. Makes sense with the old CLs being converted.

4. These four ships could be of the class you develop to replace the Otori's. IF the Otori's are not built then these could be to lead ships of a COrvette/DE -class deployed at the early phases of the war. Could justify this by the war in Europe going and the Japanese watch maritime England fight for its life.



John 3rd -> RE: 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 3:25:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

Continuing with DDs.

So, we have 6 Hatsuharu, 6 Shiratsuyu, 14 Asashio, 20 Kagero (equal to RL Yugumos) laid down by second half of 1940, when Japan enters the stage of immediate war preparations. This is not ehough, considering reduction in CLs and torpedo capabilities of old DDs. At this stage IJN must worry not about escort destroyers (which are relatively plentiful anyway), but about lack of the frontline combatants. On the other hand, the new 127/50 DP gun meant for the new generation of destroyers isn't quite ready yet, and information from Europe about dangers posed to warships by LBA should be already available, making building new destroyers with the old 127/50 Type 3 questionable.

At this stage, using experience gained by building and reconstructing ships according to the previous part of my program, plus designs that were pondered for a long time, due to expectations of a longer war, Naval Ministry produces a plan of building a war emergency series of destroyers and other ships, replacing 5 Yugumos (from Kazegumo to Takanami) and first 3 Akizukis in the yards. The design of the war emergency destroyer should based on Shiratsuyu design with the same gun and torpedo armament, but simplified whenever possible, with shorter hull and slightly less speed. 10 ships should be laid down, with 2-3 of them available before the start of hostilities, thanks to their faster building, and others available in 1942.
However, the most cunning part of this project is that the same basic hull (with reduced machinery and other necessary changes) will be used to build other ships, necessary for the approaching war. First of them will be fast landing ships, capable of carrying Daihatsu barges, initially envisioned to serve in the vanguard of the invasion forces, which later quickly find their use as a part of various Tokyo Expresses, freeing real destroyers for other tasks. The first series will number about 6 of these APDs (2-3 available at the beginning), with mass building starting in late 1942.
In addition, a couple of fast minelayers, arriving in late 1942 - early 1943, will use this template as well (mine warfare will get more attention according to the premise).

Once the new 127/50 gun is available, start building Kagero derivatives, carrying six of them. No Shimakaze and no dedicated AA destroyers (as these will be used as normal DDs anyway). These ships will start arriving from about December of 1942. Assuming that the development of their gun is reasonably successful (this is, admittedly, a favorable assumption), and seeing as survived prototype of the Type 5 single had about the same weight as Type 3 single mountings (even though many details were noticed to be heavy) they won't be be noticeably larger than Kageros, and definitely smaller than Akizukis. They will replace 20 ships built IRL (10 Yugumo, 9 Akizuki, 1 Shimakaze), and, thanks to hald the ships they will be replacing being extra expensive, I think building at least 24 of this super-Kagero class is not particularly outlandish, even accounting for their new and expensive weapons.

Finally, using experience with Kamikaze conversions, start building Matsus in early 1943, soon after the program of larger war emergency destroyers described above is completed. Try to develop the sixtuple TT for them as soon as possible.

So, how about this program? Note, that I tried to avoid straight increases in the number of ships, even though the mod postulates some economical improvements, at least from later start of the war in China. That's because I think it should be more wise (both from historical and gameplay standpoint) to invest more savings into expanding and refitting industry, so it will be able to crank out much more and better weapons from 1943 onwards. In the program above this is first felt by earlier start of production of the Matsu series and earlier mass production of dedicated APDs.

Alternative variants to the above:

- Just build more Kageros (extra 8 of them) until weapons for super-Kagero are available. On the positive side, this allows to use the same design all the way, on the negative side, AA capabilities will be low. Build dedicated APDs as described.

- Less stripped-down Matsu design, with engines at exactly half the power of big destroyers and 2x2 127/40 armament, instead of normal Matsus. Speed might increase from slightly less than 28 knots to 29-30.



I love the AA DDs, however, they were highly expensive. What is used to bolster AA defense around and including the CVs then? Is this where we would place the rebuild-CLAA old CLs? THEY become an additionally layer of protection for the carriers? If we take those 6 and add the 4 Float Plane CLs it might work...

Your vision of the building program here is solid and cannot find real fault with any of it. The point about not building MASSIVE numbers of new ships but improving the industry strikes a solid chord with me. Totally concur. Specific reactions:

1. Like the 24 Super-Kagero's built as a stop gap until the better gun comes in.

2. Early Matsu's are the simple answer that we stumbled along into with RA. Think it makes a great deal of sense to build them and earlier. Essentially they are being heavily worked and reworked as the last Class A DDs roll off the ways.

3. A later start to the China War? Sounds like an interesting story coming along...



John 3rd -> RE: ideas (8/7/2011 3:28:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dibbura

I have some ideas about Japan-German cooperation, as well as a logical development of the Japanese alone. (Not very ahistorical [:)] )
Most of them about ground and air, and only few of them about navy [;)]
Some of them I slowly implementing for my own tests)

And if it’s interesting for you, and my not very good English is not a problem[;)], I can post them.



Fire AWAY! We love ideas...



FatR -> RE: Proto-Shokaku (8/7/2011 3:49:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
1. Nine full CVs at start? My count is Akagi, Atago, new CV, Soryu, Hiryu, Sho, Zui, Shoho, and Zuiho. The Atago would carry 6-9 less planes then Kaga due to the size difference and the new CV would add 21 for a net gain of 13-16 planes. That isn't much at all.

The idea, as I've already explained above, is not building any of the three dedicated shadow fleet ships (one of which will be replaced by CL conversions in its initial role, and other two were laid down post-treaties), and just going for another pair of Hiryus right away. As I mentioned, this will increase cost by no more than 20-25%, compared to just Shoho/Zuiho, and will occupy shipyards for shorter time. I think this concept was even discussed in detail on this board before.






John 3rd -> RE: Proto-Shokaku (8/7/2011 3:51:37 PM)

I saw that after I Posted the above comments.



FatR -> RE: 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 4:26:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
I love the AA DDs, however, they were highly expensive. What is used to bolster AA defense around and including the CVs then?

Hatsuharu and Shiratsuyu DDs already have full DP armament in this alternative, eveb if their guns are not as good. Plus, as you said, conversions. Super-Kagero class will have full DP armament. Flak potential of Japanese DDs will be way higher than IRL.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
1. Like the 24 Super-Kagero's built as a stop gap until the better gun comes in.

I think I was unclear here - I referred as super-Kageros to DDs with new DP guns (let's name them Type 99 guns). The stopgap is either 8 regular Kageros or 10 "war emergency" DD with 127/40 armament

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
2. Early Matsu's are the simple answer that we stumbled along into with RA. Think it makes a great deal of sense to build them and earlier. Essentially they are being heavily worked and reworked as the last Class A DDs roll off the ways.

Any comments on whether to stick with the historical design or with a slightly bigger one?

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
3. A later start to the China War? Sounds like an interesting story coming along...

This was discussed upthread. It is only logical, that with greater control exerted by the emperor over IJA, the conflict won't be provoked quite as early. The war will start with 1938 instead, giving Japan an extra year for development. The number and experience of IJA units China will decrease, though.

I think we need to take a break to make our initial premises clearer. See my posts # 8 and 29 about what I can say on them.


On escorts - the first half of my DD proposal already will give Japan the biggest fleet of escorts and escort destroyers in existence at the moment. So it is hard to believe that the need for more will be seen until some time after the beginning of the war in Europe. Even then, Matsu-like destroyers will be too expensive to build when the fleet will need frontline combatants to actually conquer SRA most of all...

So, I believe, the solution here is to start the building of standard-type cargo ships in second half of 1940, foreseeing a great deficit of tonnage in case of a war against the western powers, and, simultaneously, start comissioning Etorofu-class escorts, to protect this tonnage, instead of doing it only in 1942. Build them on the money saved by early standartization of merchant production - hopefully civilian shipyards will be able to handle those hulls, and use guns removed from old destroyers (as was done IRL, except more of them will be available here) to arm these ships. I think ordering 4 in 1940 (available before the war) and 8 in 1941 (available in 1942) won't be a stretch. Start implementing cost-saving measures in the process as well. Introduce improved escort types correspondingly earlier.

Note, that this will make Japan better prepared for ASW warfare than pretty much anyone was upon entering the war, except for equipment flaws. On the other hand, I always found relaxed attidude of everyone in regards to sub threat quite puzzling, after the U-boat rampage during WWI.



John 3rd -> RE: 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 7:28:08 PM)

I never understood how the Japanese weren't terrified of the Commerce War either. Considering how they could see what Germany was doing to Great Britain in 1940 and 1941 it is SOOOOOO mystifying...



Terminus -> RE: 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 8:33:38 PM)

Well, the Japs were just as convinced of the racial inferiority of their Western enemies as vice-versa, so there's that.



FatR -> RE: 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 10:11:53 PM)

I've sent the in-game specs of my proposal to you, John, to avoid further misunderstanding. Checking the agreed-upon parts of the fleet before we continue with the discussion...

BatDiv1--Nagato, Mutsu, Kaga, Tosa
BatDiv2--Ise, Hyuga, Fuso, Yamashiro (None of them modified, conversion options present from the start)
BatDiv3--Kongo, Hiei, Haruna, Kirishima
BatDiv4--Owari, Kii (I'd prefer "Satsuma" for historical symbolism, though :)) available, Musashi, Shinano in construction (9x410/50, 29-30 knots battleships. I'll try to master Springsharp program to gauge realistic displacement, or find some existing alt-battleships proposals.)

We have all needed art for the battleships.

CAs/CLs
CruDiv1: (Myoko-Class) Myoko, Nachi, Haguro, Ashigara
CruDiv2: (Takao-Class) Takao, Atago, Maya, Chokai
CruDiv3: (Mogamis-as-CAs, so named after mountains) Niitaka, Tone, Chikuma, Kurama
CruDiv4: (Improved Mogami class) Iwaki, Hikari (Mogamis-as-CLs) Mogami, Mikuma
Building CAs Kasagi and Ikoma (Improved Mogami class) will be assigned to CruDiv4 upon completion, or as needed to replace losses.

CruDiv5: Aoba, Kinugasa, Kako, Furutaka (9x155mm armament)

Leaders of destroyer divisions: Yubari, Naka, Sendai, Jintsu, Kako

Training cruisers: Kuma, Tama, Kitakami

To be assigned to carrier forces as recon/AA defense ships: Yahagi, Agano, ???, ??? (I noticed you think that four of these should be built, if so, two last ships probably should be available late in the war)

In reconstruction as CLAAs/torpedo cruisers, whatever the player prefers: Nagara, Isuzu, Natori, Yura, Kinu, Abukuma.

Reconstructed as CS: Oi, Kiso

Reconstructed as CM: Tenryu, Tatsuta.

Art needed: the scout CLAA, 5500k reconstructed CLAA, reconstructed CS, reconstructed CM, preferably also slightly modified art for Mogami variants and for Aobas/Furutakas with new armament. I'll try to find concept art for the first four when I can, which is not today - easy to do for concepts I lifted from somewhere, not so for others).



JuanG -> RE: 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 10:18:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

I've sent the in-game specs of my proposal to you, John, to avoid further misunderstanding. Checking the agreed-upon parts of the fleet before we continue with the discussion...

BatDiv1--Nagato, Mutsu, Kaga, Tosa
BatDiv2--Ise, Hyuga, Fuso, Yamashiro (None of them modified, conversion options present from the start)
BatDiv3--Kongo, Hiei, Haruna, Kirishima
BatDiv4--Owari, Kii (I'd prefer "Satsuma" for historical symbolism, though :)) available, Musashi, Shinano in construction (9x410/50, 29-30 knots battleships. I'll try to master Springsharp program to gauge realistic displacement, or find some existing alt-battleships proposals.)

We have all needed art for the battleships.

CAs/CLs
CruDiv1: (Myoko-Class) Myoko, Nachi, Haguro, Ashigara
CruDiv2: (Takao-Class) Takao, Atago, Maya, Chokai
CruDiv3: (Mogamis-as-CAs, so named after mountains) Niitaka, Tone, Chikuma, Kurama
CruDiv4: (Improved Mogami class) Iwaki, Hikari (Mogamis-as-CLs) Mogami, Mikuma
Building CAs Kasagi and Ikoma (Improved Mogami class) will be assigned to CruDiv4 upon completion, or as needed to replace losses.

CruDiv5: Aoba, Kinugasa, Kako, Furutaka (9x155mm armament)

Leaders of destroyer divisions: Yubari, Naka, Sendai, Jintsu, Kako

Training cruisers: Kuma, Tama, Kitakami

To be assigned to carrier forces as recon/AA defense ships: Yahagi, Agano, ???, ??? (I noticed you think that four of these should be built, if so, two last ships probably should be available late in the war)

In reconstruction as CLAAs/torpedo cruisers, whatever the player prefers: Nagara, Isuzu, Natori, Yura, Kinu, Abukuma.

Reconstructed as CS: Oi, Kiso

Reconstructed as CM: Tenryu, Tatsuta.

Art needed: the scout CLAA, 5500k reconstructed CLAA, reconstructed CS, reconstructed CM, preferably also slightly modified art for Mogami variants and for Aobas/Furutakas with new armament. I'll try to find concept art for the first four when I can, which is not today - easy to do for concepts I lifted from somewhere, not so for others).


I'm willing to take a shot at the art and getting you some stats for the BBs and other designs with SpringSharp and NAaB if you'd like.



John 3rd -> RE: 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 10:32:38 PM)

JUAN! Great to see you Post. How are you doing Sir?

We shall gladly take you up on your kind offer.




JuanG -> RE: 3rd Circle Plan (8/7/2011 10:41:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

JUAN! Great to see you Post. How are you doing Sir?



Hey John, cheers for the welcome. Great to see you guys still working on RA and now this.

I've had a busy year, so I've really only had time to follow overall patch progress and the Babes mod here when I could. Ill probably be around more now that my schedule is less hectic though; have some great ideas for a new set of scenarios.

As said, let me know if you'd like any help; I cant guarantee that my artwork is really up to scratch, but theres only one way to find out! [;)]



Terminus -> RE: Proto-Shokaku (8/7/2011 11:13:43 PM)

Where are all the planes coming from? Japan couldn't supply her needs IRL, and this seems to make things even harder.



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