RE: A look at Barbarossa. (Full Version)

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Red Prince -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/7/2011 12:32:26 PM)

Below, while very cluttered by editing in extra Flyouts, you can see more of the units that are involved in the raging battle for the steppes. Rundstedt is just off the screen to the south.

[image]local://upfiles/38062/AD2782727C7E4E1FA945935AF7B501D8.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at end of Axis impulse #5, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)




Red Prince -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/7/2011 12:36:44 PM)

And finally, Stalino in danger. I didn't take the city, and that Factory might not be there when I do, but at least now I have fewer factors defending it (good since I happen to be out of O-chits [X(] -- for now [;)] ), and they are disorganized, which counters the die roll modifier for being in a city. It may take some effort, but I want that city this turn.

[image]local://upfiles/38062/B83F89AE8FFC424AA89472AD10383B84.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at end of Axis impulse #5, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)



Red Prince -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/7/2011 12:47:35 PM)

Overall I'm happy with the way things are going. Perhaps the Soviet retreat has been a little hasty, but I won't argue. [;)] The German Army has made some headway toward ultimate victory, and while I would love to see more dead Russians, I haven't lost much either (pasted insert).

Some notes:

  • A lot of my air force is disorganized, but so is much of his.
  • My ground forces, by and large, are in good shape, with few disorganized units.
  • I still have 3 of 5 HQs alive, and nobody up front out of supply.
  • The Northern Front is finally ready to be truly threatening, rather than just frightening.
I like what I see. [:)]

[image]local://upfiles/38062/AEA56DF70E5B47E49DA1C98386C93E1F.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at end of Axis impulse #5, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)




Red Prince -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/7/2011 1:03:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Centuur makes an important point worth repeating for newer fans watching the game at home.....playing this scenario is extremely different than playing out Barbarossa during a full campaign game, or even the scenario that starts in M/J 41 and goes to the end of the war.

But different in several ways. The Japanese aren't a worry for the USSR. The Brits aren't a worry for Germany. The confined battlefield and game length make a big difference since both sides have no concerns about 'saving' any units past the last turn. The choices of optional rules also has an impact.

Nonetheless, when all is said and done, it is an excellent learning scenario for WIF land operations. And as Bjorn and Aaron are showing, it doesn't take very long to complete the game/scenario. Whenever I play a game over the board it is always twice, once as each side - which can be somewhat difficult to do with the full Global War scenario.[:D]

Hmmmm. Depending on how this goes, perhaps that's an idea . . .

Is the winner the one with the most total Victory Points? Or is a win a win, regardless of totals? If so, do you play a rubber match? [:D]



Centuur -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/7/2011 6:53:22 PM)

Don't be hasty, Red Prince. I wonder what you're opponent is planning now...



Red Prince -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/7/2011 7:10:30 PM)

Probably something nasty that I didn't expect, is my guess.



Red Prince -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 1:06:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Centuur makes an important point worth repeating for newer fans watching the game at home.....playing this scenario is extremely different than playing out Barbarossa during a full campaign game, or even the scenario that starts in M/J 41 and goes to the end of the war.

But different in several ways. The Japanese aren't a worry for the USSR. The Brits aren't a worry for Germany. The confined battlefield and game length make a big difference since both sides have no concerns about 'saving' any units past the last turn. The choices of optional rules also has an impact.

Nonetheless, when all is said and done, it is an excellent learning scenario for WIF land operations. And as Bjorn and Aaron are showing, it doesn't take very long to complete the game/scenario. Whenever I play a game over the board it is always twice, once as each side - which can be somewhat difficult to do with the full Global War scenario.[:D]

One optional rule, in particular, has helped me a lot: Scrap Units

I knew this was going to be a short game, and I knew I was going to build an Offensive Chit on the first turn. That meant I didn't need to have many units in the Force Pools to spend Build Points on, so I scrapped anything that was average or worse. In a full game, I would only scrap the 'worse'. For example, I scrapped two 6-3 INF just to get a chance at the better units. The greatest impact here was the air units. Germany has a huge advantage in air power at this point in the game (1941), and getting the best units on the board for this scenario can have a huge impact on the outcome.

Also, for any unit type that takes 4-5 turns to build, I only needed the minimum required for setup. Everything else could be scrapped. I'd never be able to build them, anyway, so why not pick and choose the best units available?



paulderynck -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 4:35:13 AM)

Interesting, but I find the limitation that the units must be three or more years old (to be scrapped) to significantly inhibit the utility of this, especially with air units.



Red Prince -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 9:32:24 AM)

To some extent, yes, but three things help here. The first is that Germany starts with a lot of air units on the map, and that means you can scrap fewer units as 'average or worse' than you would in a Global War of two years earlier. Related to that are the other two items: This scenario starts 2 years later than the Global War, so that means anything from 1938 and earlier can get tossed, which makes a huge difference. The other things is that I can scrap enough of each type to be sure to have practically all of what remains available to have a pilot assigned to it. The rest go into the Reserve Pool.

This actually brings something up that I feel I should mention out of fairness to everybody watching here, as well as to Orm:

My individual failure to understand the rules, combined with our joint failure to recognize a bug, allowed me to gain 6 Tactical Factors, while losing 4 Air-to-Air Factors for a single turn (the 2nd). This was due to the fact that upon setting up Finland and Hungary, I moved a FTR and a LND (Hun, Fin, respectively) directly to the Reserve Pool, gaining the Pilots for the 2nd turn assignment to 2 4-Factor German LND. That isn't legal. So, for this second turn, I have had this advantage. The bug itself was just that a button appeared on the Setup Tray for those minor nation units, and it should not have been there. That has already been fixed, and will be part of the next patch to the beta-testers.



Orm -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 12:40:06 PM)

I am troubled with the situation so after some pondering I decided to let Zhukov launch a counter offensive.

[image]local://upfiles/29130/DFAAFCB39F074E358AC3125F7B264357.jpg[/image]



Orm -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 12:42:59 PM)

I make a bomb raid on his armored units and hope to get lucky and disorganize them.

[image]local://upfiles/29130/99C01AFC34F64A9EB5EA578C2BA9CAD9.jpg[/image]



Orm -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 12:49:36 PM)

Since I have no fighters that can intercept his bombers on the southern front I decide to just make one attack. And surely enough the German bombers launch massive ground support. All 10 of the Soviet units attacking are doubled in strength for this attack because of the offensive launched by Zhukov. I still annoyes me to see a 7 to 1 attack be reduced to a 4-1 attack with a decent chance to become 5-1. At least I have +1 to the die roll. Unfortunately I could not get enough armored units into the attack so it is Germany who decides what combat table to use.


Edit: I rolled a 6 modified to a 7. Destroying one of his armor and shattering the other.
[image]local://upfiles/29130/78FAC317CB1C48BF8380409AEF3E3A32.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at Allied Land Combat Resolution of Allied impulse #6, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)



Orm -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 1:26:51 PM)

Moving a bit south on the Murmansk Front.

[image]local://upfiles/29130/1492B0BC6350427BBC0BC20F9C691B90.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at end of Allied impulse #6, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)



Orm -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 1:28:15 PM)

Withdrawing slowly on the north front.

[image]local://upfiles/29130/FE6F7BEA7D074AA0855C30ACF1F3D735.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at end of Allied impulse #6, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)



Orm -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 1:29:57 PM)

Abandoning the defence of Smolensk on the central front.

[image]local://upfiles/29130/1F2975A3DAB74894B77FD0602B570519.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at end of Allied impulse #6, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)



Orm -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 1:34:30 PM)

On the south front I launched a desperate attack with all available forces on the German armored spearhead. I managed to destroy one of the armors and shatter the other. Still, an expensive attack since I used up my offensive on the attack. After the attack Zhukow reorganized one fighter and one bomber. My air transport reorganized a militia in Kharkov that I just railed there.

[image]local://upfiles/29130/87A69A2912C84CD5B00A88D1B25642F9.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at end of Allied impulse #6, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)



Orm -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 1:36:29 PM)

And last a picture showing most of the combat zone.

[image]local://upfiles/29130/4B62E7BC2F164AD2963D49AFE6C3D063.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at end of Allied impulse #6, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)



Centuur -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 2:27:36 PM)

Orm, I think you did do pretty well by removing those two ARM there (I would have attacked those two also, since they were out of FTR support). The Germans did use a lot of airplanes to get a little better result, so no ground strikes next impulse on you're precious units. I think you've made the Germans think again about not taking that air action to get his whole airforce on the frontlines...



Joseignacio -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 2:38:30 PM)

Hi, when you rail a factory to Siberia (for instance), that factory doesn't count anymore for defence purposes at the original city? I was told it did.



composer99 -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 2:46:10 PM)

2 German ARM off the map should give the USSR the ARM advantage for the next little while; too bad the Germans still have the land unit advantage overall, and the USSR is running out of space to retreat to (for the purposes of this scenario, anyway).



Orm -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 2:49:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Hi, when you rail a factory to Siberia (for instance), that factory doesn't count anymore for defence purposes at the original city? I was told it did.

You were told right. It is the printed factories that gives the die roll modifier so railing or destroying factories do not change this.



Orm -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 2:51:49 PM)

It was a huge relief for me when I rolled so well that I did not get disorganiezed. I attacked with 2 HQs so if the attack failed I had only 1 ATR to reorganize my forses with. It felt like a huge gamble. But on the other hand I could not leave the armor there either. At least not with any chance of winning this.



Orm -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 3:04:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Orm, I think you did do pretty well by removing those two ARM there (I would have attacked those two also, since they were out of FTR support). The Germans did use a lot of airplanes to get a little better result, so no ground strikes next impulse on you're precious units. I think you've made the Germans think again about not taking that air action to get his whole airforce on the frontlines...


Thank you. Unfortunately for me I am running out of space. I can't afford to loose so many more cities and still win. And next turn can still bring alot of fine weather and by then Germany will have a huge air advantage.



Joseignacio -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 3:30:23 PM)

I was asking because of this post :

quote:

And finally, Stalino in danger. I didn't take the city, and that Factory might not be there when I do, but at least now I have fewer factors defending it (good since I happen to be out of O-chits -- for now ), and they are disorganized, which counters the die roll modifier for being in a city. It may take some effort, but I want that city this turn.


from RedPrince, post #121 or 122.

Thanks!



Centuur -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 4:37:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Orm, I think you did do pretty well by removing those two ARM there (I would have attacked those two also, since they were out of FTR support). The Germans did use a lot of airplanes to get a little better result, so no ground strikes next impulse on you're precious units. I think you've made the Germans think again about not taking that air action to get his whole airforce on the frontlines...


Thank you. Unfortunately for me I am running out of space. I can't afford to loose so many more cities and still win. And next turn can still bring alot of fine weather and by then Germany will have a huge air advantage.

True, but you've gained time at the southern front and you've still got some of you're airforce around there which you can use there in this turn. In the north, no planes for the Germans, so that also gives you less to worry about. Personally, I think you are doing well.



Red Prince -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 5:48:22 PM)

Hmmm. What to do, what to do. Just wanted to check in to say that I've got the save and am thinking about it. I've got a lot on my plate today (I overextended a little), and I've managed to do very little. Expect the next installment in the next few hours, though.

[sm=tank2-39.gif][sm=Tank-fahr09.gif][sm=Tank-fahr09.gif][sm=Tank-fahr09.gif]



Red Prince -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 7:00:14 PM)

With the Russians continuing their retreat, I'm only making one attack . . . it's time to collect Stalino. At the moment, this is a 62:10 attack. Orm has a LND in range, so I've sent this on to him for his decisions about that and the type of attack.

[image]local://upfiles/38062/852C084F20A9491EA8C354BF077C2809.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at Land Combat Declaration of Axis impulse #7, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)



paulderynck -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 7:29:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I was asking because of this post :

quote:

And finally, Stalino in danger. I didn't take the city, and that Factory might not be there when I do, but at least now I have fewer factors defending it (good since I happen to be out of O-chits -- for now ), and they are disorganized, which counters the die roll modifier for being in a city. It may take some effort, but I want that city this turn.


from RedPrince, post #121 or 122.

Thanks!

My impression on reading it was that part of the reason to attack is to take out the factory but Red Prince recognized Orm could rail it out during his next impulse, prior to the attack.



Red Prince -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 7:40:50 PM)

And, as expected, he chose not to waste the factors on a hopeless attack. The 5:1+1 Assault went off without a hitch. I roll of 6 became a 7, and I didn't end up with any disorganized units. I was a little worried after realizing I'd committed 10 units to this attack.

Finally! I had the chance to move 3 fighters and another bomber up to the front. At last, I now have some protection for my front line troops. Two of the FTR went to the center, one moved into Rundstedt's domain in the south, and the LND moved up to support the northern front.

In the far North, I am slowly shifting a unit up to respond to the sleepy threat of the Soviet Infantry.

[image]local://upfiles/38062/19D107A6E4114CEA9E981CA9046A4140.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at end of Axis impulse #7, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)



Red Prince -> RE: A look at Barbarossa. (8/8/2011 7:46:19 PM)

In the Center, you can see three of the aircraft now moved up to the lines. I should be in good shape with these next turn, assuming there is any good weather.

Most of the air units I've been shifting came out of Poland, so the SS Militia, on the left, is going to have to return there, or else I might have Partisan problems.

There's only one unit in Bryansk right now. I don't expect it to stay this way, but it is a pleasant dream to think about hitting it next impulse.

[image]local://upfiles/38062/047B90AA918444F9A5B8F767A2834C05.jpg[/image]
Picture taken at end of Axis impulse #7, Jul/Aug 1941 (Turn 2 of 5)



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