Out of pilot slots (Full Version)

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pompack -> Out of pilot slots (8/2/2011 4:08:48 PM)

When I run the 1sep45 turn, I get the out-of-pilot-slots message (about a gazillion times). When I try to pull a new pilot out of the pool, I get the message and no pilot.

turn created on 1108p3

problem exists when the turn is processed with eitther p3 or p6.

Save attached with file renamed from .pws to .zip, PW by PM to michaelm






Sardaukar -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/2/2011 4:43:35 PM)

You need to release pilots from your units & reserve if you have reached 50k pilots to free slots. There are buttons for that in Beta, in unit Pilot screen and in reserve pool page.



dereck -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/2/2011 6:20:03 PM)

In what Beta was releasing pilots added?



mikkey -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/2/2011 8:22:49 PM)

some tweaks are in
[1108m] -> Tweaked Deleted more killed/captured pilots when at pilot max limit [MEM]
and also in
[1108m4/5] -> Added Option to release or retire low experienced named pilots - in group and reserve lists [MEM]
-> Tweaked Pilot overflow to clear more pilots. Corrected some discrepancies in pilot numbers [MEM]



pompack -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/2/2011 9:44:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikkey

some tweaks are in
[1108m] -> Tweaked Deleted more killed/captured pilots when at pilot max limit [MEM]
and also in
[1108m4/5] -> Added Option to release or retire low experienced named pilots - in group and reserve lists [MEM]
-> Tweaked Pilot overflow to clear more pilots. Corrected some discrepancies in pilot numbers [MEM]

yep, got all of those.

I am not retiring low experienced pilots because they are better than the ones in the pool that I can't get to. I move those pilots from the general pool to the training squadrons and only go to the base pool when I run out (or I get lazy [:D])



pompack -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/2/2011 9:47:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

You need to release pilots from your units & reserve if you have reached 50k pilots to free slots. There are buttons for that in Beta, in unit Pilot screen and in reserve pool page.


"Releasing" pilots does not help at all since they still stay on the name list. Retiring pilots from the general pool into oblivion would help but that is rather pointless since the pilots in the general pool are better than the noob pilots in the base pool that I would like to access.

As to total numbers, I have 5500 in the general pools, 3500 in the base pools and about 2000 active in the air units for a total of about 11,000 pilots. While my opponent has a lot, I don't think he has over 39,000 which still puts our total, live pilots at under 50,000



jmalter -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 3:15:36 AM)

perhaps we'll need michaelm to answer this, but what would be the effect of using the old 180-day rotation?

that is, open your save-game in 1106, punch the dross pilots back for 6 months leave, save the game, then re-open in 1108.

will the R&R pilots still count against the 50K limit?



witpqs -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 3:56:09 AM)

I thought the whole point of the "Release Pilot" was that they were dropped altogether, freeing up pilot slots.



jmalter -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 4:12:12 AM)

hmm i may be wrong, but i think my released pilots are going directly to the reserve pool.
the 1/5/10 release buttons are just to reduce the clickfest of sending them 1st to sqn reserve, then clicking again to general reserve.



PaxMondo -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 4:48:40 AM)

That is releasing from the air group.  If you go to the pilot pool screen, it also has a release button.  Releasing from the pool sends them to oblivion.



jmalter -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 6:20:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

That is releasing from the air group.  If you go to the pilot pool screen, it also has a release button.  Releasing from the pool sends them to oblivion.

thx! i see that now - when i access the pilot pool from the 'I' screen & switch to the reserve pool, i get the option to bliterate 1/5/10/50 pilots to blivion. or i click on individual pilots to do the same - v. useful to cull the worst from my pool. Some of these guys are worth sending to 'training' sqns, but there's more than a few that need to explore career options in the civilian sector.



michaelm75au -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 10:52:26 AM)

There are about 300 empty pilot slots in the save. So not sure why you would be getting the out of pilots.
[edit]
Error in count.



michaelm75au -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 11:02:52 AM)

The error message in being reported when it can't get a pilot from a particular pool, but it then manages to get one from another.
So the message is redundant.
Seems to a case where I didn't suppress the message rather than a true 'out of pilots'.

edit
However, it does run out of pilots by end of the turn.
60+ US bomber groups showed up absorbing the spares.



michaelm75au -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 12:04:19 PM)

I probably could increase the number of pilots, but that would break any Tracker or Witpstaff access.
The DLL would need to change with all its issues that have cropped up in the past.



WLockard -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 1:59:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I probably could increase the number of pilots, but that would break any Tracker or Witpstaff access.
The DLL would need to change with all its issues that have cropped up in the past.



Increasing the number of pilots would seem to be needed sometime, might as well do it soon and let tracker and staff people deal with it.



Sardaukar -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 2:20:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WLockard


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I probably could increase the number of pilots, but that would break any Tracker or Witpstaff access.
The DLL would need to change with all its issues that have cropped up in the past.



Increasing the number of pilots would seem to be needed sometime, might as well do it soon and let tracker and staff people deal with it.


+1, especially since everyone is overloading their units with pilots.



jwilkerson -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 3:05:35 PM)

We doubled the number of slots from WITP ... from roughly 32,000 to 64,000 ... in the early game the total number of pilot slots used in AE is probably less than WITP, but over time it clearly increases.

If we add more slots, this will only apply to newly started games and as Michael says would break some of the third party tool, some of which may no longer be supported (I'm not sure - maybe they all are).

If we add more slots, we should probably go crazy and add maybe four more bits to go up to roughly 1,024,000 ... a number of internal accumulators might need to be adjusted and maybe some screen items. But an increase like this should at least ensure that stock games which run out of pilot slots would be rare.




pompack -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 4:20:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

We doubled the number of slots from WITP ... from roughly 32,000 to 64,000 ... in the early game the total number of pilot slots used in AE is probably less than WITP, but over time it clearly increases.

If we add more slots, this will only apply to newly started games and as Michael says would break some of the third party tool, some of which may no longer be supported (I'm not sure - maybe they all are).

If we add more slots, we should probably go crazy and add maybe four more bits to go up to roughly 1,024,000 ... a number of internal accumulators might need to be adjusted and maybe some screen items. But an increase like this should at least ensure that stock games which run out of pilot slots would be rare.




In real life, I discovered that the Japanese had about 12,000 pilots "trained" as Kamikaze pilots at the time of the Japanese surrender. With that thought in mind, I build up a large pool of obsolete a/c and started an intensive kami training program by training in "low naval" up to 61. By the summer of 45 there are so many Japanese training units that it is quite easy to get 100-150 pilots per week graduating at that level by summer. By pushing this program with every training unit, I was only able to get to about 5000 "trained" kami pilots before this slot problem occurred.

So I think that there is historical justification for at least doubling the number of pilot slots. It's certainly not something you need during the bulk of the game, but the endgame is quite different.

(and with this current limitation, I am now training the kamis to 75 and that is a really well-trained kamikaze [:D])



witpqs -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 4:25:16 PM)

I'm not sure about WITP Staff, but the Tracker guys are quite active and and increase in the pilot pool might be only a minor change for them.

Having two DLLs (for Tracker), one for "before increase" and one for "after increase" seems manageable.



Alfred -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/3/2011 11:03:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

We doubled the number of slots from WITP ... from roughly 32,000 to 64,000 ... in the early game the total number of pilot slots used in AE is probably less than WITP, but over time it clearly increases.

If we add more slots, this will only apply to newly started games and as Michael says would break some of the third party tool, some of which may no longer be supported (I'm not sure - maybe they all are).

If we add more slots, we should probably go crazy and add maybe four more bits to go up to roughly 1,024,000 ... a number of internal accumulators might need to be adjusted and maybe some screen items. But an increase like this should at least ensure that stock games which run out of pilot slots would be rare.




I certainly think this would be the right course of action. Increasing the pilot slots to 1 million together with the associated necessary work would be an excellent narrative for a new official patch which would also incorporate all the beta work.

Yes it would be a pity if some third party utilities were to be broken. That however is not a valid concern. The primary concern must always be the officially supported product. The population which is able to, or want to use third party software is only a subset of the population which has bought and plays the game.

With 1 million pilot slots, there really would be no excuse for players to complain they ran out of pilots. So many slots would mean each existing airframe in every air unit would have much more than 100 waiting pilots to step in. That degree of pilot hoarding is very poor allocation of assets.

Alfred



Zeta16 -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/4/2011 1:19:55 AM)

It would be better to have a lot more pilots spots than to run out in 44 and lose half of your good pilots to this, if it means that a 3rd party app is broken so be it. I would guess that less than 5% of the AE populations uses these things. I havbe already had several games hurt by the slot limit, and many more in WiTP as well.



CaptDave -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/4/2011 1:27:52 AM)

FWIW, I believe WitPStaff is an official product that accompanies the release.  Also, you might be surprised at the number of people using Tracker.

Your points are correct, but I wouldn't so simply discount the other products.  Cooperation with their publishers definitely is in order.



seii taishôgun -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/4/2011 4:42:51 AM)

Hi jwilkerson,

Do you or someone on your team have any feel for when this upgrade might come to be? I ask only because I've literally just sent turn 1 to my opponent for Scenario 2 of AE.

I still have the original first turn prior to sending it to my opponent so I could probably convince him to wait if this is something you expect to happen within a month or so...


Thanks,

ST



n01487477 -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/4/2011 8:26:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

If we add more slots, this will only apply to newly started games and as Michael says would break some of the third party tool, some of which may no longer be supported (I'm not sure - maybe they all are).



That degree of pilot hoarding is very poor allocation of assets.

Alfred

Tracker is supported and we're going to do a new release sometime down the track ... adding to the array is no biggie for us ... just the *.dll issue for the user is of concern.

Micheal are there any memory issues with the save being the size it is for users with less ram etc?

1m pilots - great no more complaints, but what about getting the job done with the assets you've been given?
Instead of making every group (even in backwaters) and pool brimming with redundancy. There is something to be said for managing your forces, logistics and assets - and is a large part of the game ! ... In the past thread I advocated a small increase - 1M is just ridiculous.

Just my 2c



hunchback77 -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/4/2011 6:00:15 PM)

I agree with Damian, 1 million pilots is ridiculous. Hording planes and pilots in the backwaters is not how wars are fought. If the USA fought WW2 like that they would still be on North America with 10 million planes and pilots and an unconquered Germany and Japan. When they started getting heavy bomber loses over Germany, they didn't run back to North America and hoard their B-17's and crews, they kept going.
I think we are pretty close to a good pilot limit and any more increasing beyond say 80,000 or 90,000 and we're turning AE into fantasy game.Players who like to hoard should be punished and a reasonable pilot limit is a good way to do it.



witpqs -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/4/2011 6:52:00 PM)

I think you guys are missing the point. I think that Joe is saying that from a programming standpoint it is just as easy to increase by 4 bits as by 1 bit. The 1 bit would double it, the 4 bits would bring it to a about a million possible pilots. No matter the mod, the length of game, the bad habits of any player, that should always be enough slots. He's not advocating poor resource management, he's advocating doing a fix once and never having to do it again. As it affects 3rd party stuff like Tracker, "doing it once" is even more attractive.



PaxMondo -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/4/2011 6:55:49 PM)

For a GC if I'm doing my sums correctly, the game will make available in excess of 200,000 pilots. That's just from memory here that IJ gets ~ 1000 pilots/month and Allies get ~3000/month for 53 months. Doesn't include pilots already in air groups or those scheduled to arrive later.

Just from that math, I would go with 524,288 pilot limit as a minimum (even bit number). Given some mods might start earlier/ run longer and/or have higher pilot addition rates (like Scen 2), I beleive jwilkerson and Michael are correct that 1,048,576 limit might be most appropriate if we make any change.

As agonizing as that number is, the game arrays do need to support the features that are built in.



PaxMondo -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/4/2011 6:56:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I think you guys are missing the point. I think that Joe is saying that from a programming standpoint it is just as easy to increase by 4 bits as by 1 bit. The 1 bit would double it, the 4 bits would bring it to a about a million possible pilots. No matter the mod, the length of game, the bad habits of any player, that should always be enough slots. He's not advocating poor resource management, he's advocating doing a fix once and never having to do it again. As it affects 3rd party stuff like Tracker, "doing it once" is even more attractive.

+1



House Stark -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/4/2011 8:07:05 PM)

For the people saying that 1,000,000+ pilot slots will lead to pilot and plane "hoarding" in backwaters: I got the impression that the problem was that people couldn't maintain frontline squadrons and training squadrons for the planes they had. Which is ridiculous-you're not going to send undertrained pilots into battle if you have too, nor should you suddenly be unable to have replacements for front line units training for some weird mystical reason. For better or worse, on map training is almost always required in this game, so there will always be some squadrons remaining in backwater regions.

The only possible problems with a massive increase in the pilot array seem to be that it could cause a jump in RAM requirements, and that some 3rd party programs might not be regularly updated and would become unusable for a time or potentially forever.



pompack -> RE: Out of pilot slots (8/4/2011 10:40:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: House Stark

For the people saying that 1,000,000+ pilot slots will lead to pilot and plane "hoarding" in backwaters: I got the impression that the problem was that people couldn't maintain frontline squadrons and training squadrons for the planes they had. Which is ridiculous-you're not going to send undertrained pilots into battle if you have too, nor should you suddenly be unable to have replacements for front line units training for some weird mystical reason. For better or worse, on map training is almost always required in this game, so there will always be some squadrons remaining in backwater regions.

The only possible problems with a massive increase in the pilot array seem to be that it could cause a jump in RAM requirements, and that some 3rd party programs might not be regularly updated and would become unusable for a time or potentially forever.



Actually it is stronger than that. I have not counted lately, but the Japanese get over fifty training units (with 30-90 pilots each) that can ONLY train pilots.



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