Leningrad: the open door defence (Full Version)

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Hoooper -> Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 10:57:24 AM)

I've played seven or eight grand campaign games as the Soviets, and the only constant in the ones that have got beyond 1941 is that I've lost Leningrad. In fact I've not only lost it, but I've managed to lose the equivalent of an entire front in the process. The dazed survivors stream east as untrained and understrength reserves arrive by rail from the west, and a line is formed around Lake Beloe anchored on Cherepovets, after which the Finns arrive and the sector becomes static for a year or so. The galling thing about this sequence of events is that I almost never make the Germans fight for the city; instead there is an armoured thrust across the Volkhov that takes the Ladoga ports, the 23rd army becomes isolated, and falls without putting up much resistance. So, here's a plan to keep the city in Soviet hands. I got the idea after reading a post that asked how important Novgorod was to the defence of Leningrad.

This is the terrain without any units showing.

[image]local://upfiles/37856/39F8F6CF0F2543478EA0EE1CC510F67D.jpg[/image]



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 11:19:53 AM)

Phase one: there are some preliminary steps that the Soviet player should take as soon as the war starts. First, two fortified zones should be installed, one two hexes east of Schlisselburg (this is the weakest point in the entire defence, and also covers the rail link to the city), the other across the Volkhov at Posadnikovo Kirishi, the weak spot on the lower Volkhov. Second, in the first five turns or so, a continuous line should be built east of Ladoga to keep the Finns away from the lake ports. Third, work should begin straight away on the main defence line, which will be anchored on the Krasnogvarddeysk hills. Like so:

[image]local://upfiles/37856/5CF8DCEE4F0344AA80CB25A5FD822E39.jpg[/image]



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 11:36:31 AM)

Phase two: The usual delaying actions should be fought at Pskov, preferably with an entire army, and a weak checkerboard set up between Pskov and the Luga. Meanwhile, the Leningrad divisions should be installed along the Luga. By the time the Germans reach the river, there should be enough divisions to hold a continuous front, in enough strength to give the impression that this is the main line of resistance. There are two points to bear in mind here: first, Novgorod must be all but impregnable, as this is going to be the key to the whole plan, and second, the line should be stronger towards its eastern end. The reason is that the whole front is going to pivot on the hinge of Novgorod to settle on the Volkhov, revealing the real main lines of resistance on the Volkhov and Krasnogvarddeysk, and that is going to be easier to achieve if the Germans attack the west of the line. Here's the general idea:

[image]local://upfiles/37856/07050E29A528453FB3BDEFB541E38923.jpg[/image]



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 11:38:10 AM)

Whoops



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 11:40:12 AM)

Whoops x2

[image]local://upfiles/37856/77EB2C72DAD24843822DF1B9A6491FB3.jpg[/image]



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 11:50:32 AM)

If correctly executed, and if the Germans play their part [:D] the result should be a line in front of Leningrad with CVs of between 20 and 30, a line behind the Volkhov with CVs of between 10 and 20 and a short, heavily fortified line preserving communications between them. This can be used to channel Stavka reserves into Leningrad itself.

I've only tested this defence once, in a game I'm playing at the moment, and so far it's gone exactly to plan. Here's what happened:

Turn 7, preparations are under way

[image]local://upfiles/37856/E5220AA2021E41069AA96339D876D96E.jpg[/image]



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 11:53:13 AM)

Turn 9: the Germans arrive

[image]local://upfiles/37856/922807260ECF420EA568F8A41DEE9F04.jpg[/image]



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 12:00:02 PM)

Turn 10
No real resistance is offered on the Luga, instead the door begins to swing open to reveal the fully manned defence line in the hills in front of the city ... notice that the aim is to stop the Axis dead on this line, so there is little in the way of reserves in the urban areas behind. If the plan works, and the situation elsewhere in the front allows it, Stavka reserves will be railed in to hold the city itself.


[image]local://upfiles/37856/4613F4F3F9B54E299504F398E5030DB8.jpg[/image]



76mm -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 12:00:39 PM)

I consider it important to put a unit in the hex just east of Pavlovo, north of the Neva) on turn 1 to start fortifying Lgrad's "backdoor". In many of the AARs I've read Lgrad has fallen because the Germans take that hex.



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 12:07:16 PM)

Turn 11
This is the final position. Now the defence of the city is fairly secure, but the Soviets have to fight to hold the river and the ports. I;m not sure if the Red Army can contain the Axis if they strongly reinforce Army Group North, but if the city does fall, losses should be considerably less than an entire front, and the Soviets should be able to retreat in good order, ready to return at the earliest opportunity.



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 12:08:09 PM)

Turn 11

[image]local://upfiles/37856/8D4B75CCDB60476EA5E642763C0DBAA1.jpg[/image]



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 12:12:46 PM)

Finally, I'm not too worried about my opponent's push east of Lake Ilmen because the terrain favours defence and I should have enough forces to stop him well before the Volkhov rail link. Famous last words?



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 12:22:36 PM)

Yes, good point. It probably should be fortified to the third or fourth level.



Apollo11 -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 12:23:40 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoooper

Turn 10
No real resistance is offered on the Luga, instead the door begins to swing open to reveal the fully manned defence line in the hills in front of the city ... notice that the aim is to stop the Axis dead on this line, so there is little in the way of reserves in the urban areas behind.[/image]


This looks good on paper and map but, unfortunately, it will not work against good German opponent... Soviets simply can't rely on line defence in 1942 no matter how "strong" the CV values show in that defensive single line infront Leningrad...


Your stacks with 40 value would crumble... sorry but that's how things are... it is inevitable...


Soviet player MUST use deep defense and heavily fortify in depth - single line fortifications are insufficient!


Leo "Apollo11"



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 12:39:46 PM)

Well yes, but there will be additional lines behind Krasnogvarddeysk by the time that that happens. And it will take time for the Germans to concentrate; meanwhile the Volkhov line will get stronger and it will be harder to take all three lake ports, which is the point of the whole plan. At the very least the Germans will have to throw in reserves, which makes this strategy a (very) roundabout way of defending Moscow and Kharkov.



Apollo11 -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 12:51:04 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoooper

Well yes, but there will be additional lines behind Krasnogvarddeysk by the time that that happens. And it will take time for the Germans to concentrate; meanwhile the Volkhov line will get stronger and it will be harder to take all three lake ports, which is the point of the whole plan. At the very least the Germans will have to throw in reserves, which makes this strategy a (very) roundabout way of defending Moscow and Kharkov.


During WitE ALPHA/BETA I played at least 20 "Road to Leningrad" PBEMs against fellow tester "U2" (Daniel - he is old UV/WitP player as well - he is one of the best German player we have in the WitE ALPHA/BETA development team).

I always played the Soviet side in those PBEMs.


Whatever I did I was unable to stop the determined attack by Germans even in that short scenario (and in grand campaign Germans can divert more force towards Leningrad since this is #1 goal on any good German player's list)...


Also - in your screen with Turn #11 the Germans can simply try bypassing your defensive line from the back - your forces behind the main line are much weaker than in the main line and could immediately be destroyed... the Germans only need to attack from left to right in the Pushino -> Kolpino direction... I have seen it happen many times...[;)]


Leo "Apollo11"



Tarhunnas -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 1:15:20 PM)

Not sure if it will work, but an interesting plan, and good posts Hooper!



Klydon -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 1:45:29 PM)

Some good discussion here on trying to formulate a Russian response to what has become a common German tactic of going for Leningrad.

I think some of the basic objectives for the Russians is to get their industry out of Leningrad, delay the Germans enough to make them commit a good amount of forces to a Leningrad operation and to also delay the fall of Leningrad to ensure the Germans can't send at least PG4 off to another sector of the line to have any significant impact before mud. On top of that, the Russians need to avoid excessive losses here. They can use the extra troops elsewhere while doing a big delay since there isn't really anything beyond Leningrad that would suggest the Russians need to stand and fight with significant amounts of troops.

One of the things I see looking over Hooper's plan is the assumption the Germans won't start getting infantry to the Luga line until turn 9. I think they can be there sooner if the Germans are out to make a big push. 



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 2:31:14 PM)

Whatever I did I was unable to stop the determined attack by Germans even in that short scenario (and in grand campaign Germans can divert more force towards Leningrad since this is #1 goal on any good German player's list)...

Well did you try opening the door? [;)]
In response to your general point, I'm not suggesting that this plan is a foolproof defence of Leningrad; I'm suggesting it is:
a) A good way of losing as few divisions as possible if the city does fall, since there won't be a huge pocket east of the Volkhov
b) A good way of keeping communications by rail and water open as long as possible between Leningrad and the rest of Russia, because it makes the most of the River Volkhov, which, in conjunction with Novgorod, is the strongest natural barrier the Soviets have, and this in turn makes the most of Leningrad itself. The aim is to make the Germans assault supplied units in urban terrain, rather than rounding them up after they're isolated.
c) Is a good way of co-ordinating the Red Army's defence. If the Soviet player keeps the template in mind they can get the most out each unit, thanks to the defensive terrain. Too often the Leningrad and NW fronts breaks turn a herd of cattle for slaughter once a defensive line is penetrated ...
d) Can give the Red Army player a psychological edge - a sudden well-planned withdrawal to prepared positions can create the impression that they have a cunning plan [8D].

On your specific point, I'll post a picture after my opponent moves! I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm slightly more confident than you about my chances ...




carnifex -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 3:05:50 PM)

When I go for Leningrad vs human I almost always take the route shown below. Against the city itself I send just enough troops to keep the Soviets honest and to be able to make limited local attacks. Meanwhile every single spare unit pours through at the locations indicated by the red arrows. Not too many rivers too cross, not much defensive terrain, and soon the critical rail is cut and a linkup with the Finns achieved.

I usually pocket way more troops this way than by going after the city more directly.

[image]http://i.imgur.com/6M2KL.jpg[/image]



Farfarer61 -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 4:11:40 PM)

I thought I had Leningrad protected, butr he went all the way east... Turn 7

[image]local://upfiles/13142/911E24CF21364A8BA7D95C1A3466FCD6.jpg[/image]



Farfarer61 -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 4:13:11 PM)

And Turn 17 ....

[image]local://upfiles/13142/83375DAA3A2E4BD8A4B53F324353C6F6.jpg[/image]



Balou -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 4:18:03 PM)

@ carnifex:

Just wonder. The hook is well known and any Ger move south of Lake Ilmen can at least be delayed at Pola river together with the Valdai Hills as a resort or flank. IMO it works very well against the AI (very slow response to the hook) but in many HvH AARs - from what I've seen - the door was shut in time by decent hum-Sov.
In any case, a strong ger force going east for Pola river is obviously trying to follow the path you suggest, so I wonder why it still works: it's one of the most popular ways to link up with the Finns. In July or August 41 the Sovs cannot really stop a strong push across Pola river, but I feel they can make it very costly in terms of commited ger units. Defenders there can substantially dig in if they start right away from t1, and Pz/Mot Divs alone probably will have to wait for the Inf Divs to catch up. Going south around Lake Ilmen very early might get them flat-footed, but how is supply managed?
BTW: when do you usally cross/try to cross Pola river in your HvHs?



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 4:36:44 PM)

Re the deep right hook: the Soviets have two decent rail lines to bring in reserves from the east, and there must be scope to reinforce from Leningrad if the lines there are kept short there. Also if the Volkhov is held, those units are available for an east-of-Ilman defence - they're operating on internal lines.



Balou -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 4:42:58 PM)

Not so sure about your internal lines. Once both of them are cut and ger mob units penetrate further north, all LGD units turn yellow. Still my question remains: why does the hook still work in HvHs ?



Farfarer61 -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/3/2011 11:00:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Not so sure about your internal lines. Once both of them are cut and ger mob units penetrate further north, all LGD units turn yellow. Still my question remains: why does the hook still work in HvHs ?


Because if you defend against it the front door will open?



Balou -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/4/2011 12:14:22 AM)

Not exactly what I was thinking of. From my understanding, the right hook around Ilmen allows to bypass heavily entrenched defenders just south of Moscow - in case you arrive there either too late or underpowered. I saw it first in AI games, and it worked fine in a couple of AARs vs the AI. But it worked because the AI isn't "thinking" of a hook and doesn't do a lot to prevent it. My point is: because it's known, and because it's possible to shut a very small door in time, I still wonder why it works in HvH. You don't need tons of units at Pola river, so I doubt the front door will open because you have to defend about 5 or 6 hexes between Ilmen and Valdai Hills.



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/4/2011 12:17:25 AM)

Here's turn 12. As predicted, the west end of the Leningrad approaches is holding firm, the Krasnogvarddeysk line can't be breached by the existing Axis forces, and the deep right hook has been met with a cavalry-led counter attack from the Valdai hills (which has isolated them for the moment) and reserves from the interior have moved up to lay a carpet defence. The only blemish is that I've given up my hinge at Novgorod, but once the Axis' mobile forces have been committed east of Ilmen, that city is no longer essential to the Soviet system.



Hoooper -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/4/2011 12:19:06 AM)

whoops x3

[image]local://upfiles/37856/060DF4E78CA14767A98568856C6E4402.jpg[/image]



Farfarer61 -> RE: Leningrad: the open door defence (8/4/2011 12:27:07 AM)

Nice. What happened to me is that I had a too spaced out checkerboard-schwerpunkt and the gassed up Panzers found or made a hole. First the rail line was cut (could live with that), but then a unit snuck up to east mouth of the Svir and it was the beginning of the end. having said that Moscow held when I thought it would not, and the south did fine. Two Fronts were pocketed though.



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