observations on the game (Full Version)

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mrchuck -> observations on the game (8/4/2011 5:01:25 AM)

Early days yet, but I've noticed a few things that people may have seen or know how to deal with.

1. Bomb airfield mode--AI. Button or hotkey gets the AI happily bombing away--but I can't turn it off! I've totally failed to get it's attention once it starts, and there's no way to interact with it once it's going, e.g. to cancel a suggested mission.

Also it's mission selection seems to be pretty poor and there's no way to control that at all. This feature seems a bit undercooked and I can't use it.

Anyone know what's going on?

2. Routing units. The way this works just seems silly to me. I can see how a rifle division can rout once and displace, but playing barbarossa scenario I'm seeing them displace again and again, much more than the a man can march (or run even). Also, how on earth can a routed unit only lose e.g. HALF of its tanks, trucks, artillery etc? When units rout, that's it for all heavy weapons--or it should be.

It seems to me this is broken. Can anyone justify it as it stands? Does anyone know how to actually trap the little buggers?

3. Does anyone know what the 'AI 1:11' '0 12' etc etc means in the top bar?

4. Is it possible to control interdication attacks in your turn so that you can block specific units or hexes in your non-phasing turn? It seems totally random to me, and pretty useless if you can't direct it.

5. I liked the production system in SF/WIR better. At least you could do stuff with it. I just don't want to build pz2 thanks very much!

6. Is it _ever_ possible to destroy or capture an HQ? They just run away. Plenty of examples where generals got swept up historically. This also seems pretty silly.

I like the game plenty but the above things 1,2,4,5,6 are weird and spoil things a bit IMO.

I have the latest patch.



Tarhunnas -> RE: observations on the game (8/4/2011 12:44:40 PM)

It sounds like you are playing the Germans in 41 vs the AI.

1. Don't know, never used that function.

2. If you really want to eliminate units, and you should want that as the German in 41, you should surround them so that they are isolated and then attack them next turn. Then they will surrender. You can see routing units as the result of leaky pockets or similar. Remember that one side isn't' standing still for a week in reality just because the game has one week turns.

3. I assume its just the AI going through different phases. Nothing important anyway.

4. No, you can't control them, but they are not worthless at all. Interdiction can really mess things up for a human player, not so sure if the AI cares much however.

5. You get what they produce and that's it. As the Soviet, you can control things a bit in that you can select what units you create, but not as the German. The production system in SF/WIR was open to abuse.

6. Nope. But trust me, you don't want them displaced. Again, not sure how much it hurts the AI to have them displaced. There is a risk that the General will die when an HQ is displaced.

Hope that helps. Keep on playing and don't get hung up on the details. It's a great game!



pompack -> RE: observations on the game (8/4/2011 1:46:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mrchuck

Early days yet, but I've noticed a few things that people may have seen or know how to deal with.

1. Bomb airfield mode--AI. Button or hotkey gets the AI happily bombing away--but I can't turn it off! I've totally failed to get it's attention once it starts, and there's no way to interact with it once it's going, e.g. to cancel a suggested mission.

Works fine for me. I usually bomb one base at a time letting the AI choose the forces, but for special bases I select the forces as well
Also it's mission selection seems to be pretty poor and there's no way to control that at all. This feature seems a bit undercooked and I can't use it.

Anyone know what's going on?

2. Routing units. The way this works just seems silly to me. I can see how a rifle division can rout once and displace, but playing barbarossa scenario I'm seeing them displace again and again, much more than the a man can march (or run even). Also, how on earth can a routed unit only lose e.g. HALF of its tanks, trucks, artillery etc? When units rout, that's it for all heavy weapons--or it should be.

It seems to me this is broken. Can anyone justify it as it stands? Does anyone know how to actually trap the little buggers?

yep, really easy to justify. In RL most of the pocket infantry would just exfiltrate through any hasty pocket. In order to trap them you had to take some time and deploy your infantry in blocking positions and you still lost some of them. Isolate them and they will surrender every time

3. Does anyone know what the 'AI 1:11' '0 12' etc etc means in the top bar?

Nope, I usually go do something else anyway when the AI is busy so I never notice the messages

4. Is it possible to control interdication attacks in your turn so that you can block specific units or hexes in your non-phasing turn? It seems totally random to me, and pretty useless if you can't direct it.

It certainly doesn't feel useless when you are on the receiving end. I really, really get irritated when a carefully planned attack comes apart due to interdiction

5. I liked the production system in SF/WIR better. At least you could do stuff with it. I just don't want to build pz2 thanks very much!

Strange, I think that the panzertruppen said the same thing. Not that it did them much good [:)]. Or the players on this fourm. This has been debated for close to a decade it seems on this forum. Some dislike it, some hate it but it won't change
6. Is it _ever_ possible to destroy or capture an HQ? They just run away. Plenty of examples where generals got swept up historically. This also seems pretty silly.

I like the game plenty but the above things 1,2,4,5,6 are weird and spoil things a bit IMO.

I have the latest patch.




jaw -> RE: observations on the game (8/4/2011 2:03:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mrchuck

Early days yet, but I've noticed a few things that people may have seen or know how to deal with.

1. Bomb airfield mode--AI. Button or hotkey gets the AI happily bombing away--but I can't turn it off! I've totally failed to get it's attention once it starts, and there's no way to interact with it once it's going, e.g. to cancel a suggested mission.

Also it's mission selection seems to be pretty poor and there's no way to control that at all. This feature seems a bit undercooked and I can't use it.

Anyone know what's going on?

2. Routing units. The way this works just seems silly to me. I can see how a rifle division can rout once and displace, but playing barbarossa scenario I'm seeing them displace again and again, much more than the a man can march (or run even). Also, how on earth can a routed unit only lose e.g. HALF of its tanks, trucks, artillery etc? When units rout, that's it for all heavy weapons--or it should be.

It seems to me this is broken. Can anyone justify it as it stands? Does anyone know how to actually trap the little buggers?

3. Does anyone know what the 'AI 1:11' '0 12' etc etc means in the top bar?

4. Is it possible to control interdication attacks in your turn so that you can block specific units or hexes in your non-phasing turn? It seems totally random to me, and pretty useless if you can't direct it.

5. I liked the production system in SF/WIR better. At least you could do stuff with it. I just don't want to build pz2 thanks very much!

6. Is it _ever_ possible to destroy or capture an HQ? They just run away. Plenty of examples where generals got swept up historically. This also seems pretty silly.

I like the game plenty but the above things 1,2,4,5,6 are weird and spoil things a bit IMO.

I have the latest patch.


1. The AI auto-bombing feature was put in simply to reduce micro-management of the air war. My experience has been that it will destroy between 75% and 80% of the amount you can destroy flying the missions yourself. When you launch the feature it will run all the missions it has selected before you can intervene manually. Curiously the designers choose to eliminate from the released version auto-air supply which was in the beta. I liked that feature more that auto bombing of airfields.

2. The routed unit feature is one of the least understood aspects of the game. Routed units represent soldiers that have been so disorganized by combat that they can no longer perform as an organized unit. They basically represent columns of men and vehicles fleeing for their lives. Although they appear on the map, they aren't really "there" until they have recovered enough organization to function as a unit again.

3. Internal processing that was left on the display so players wouldn't think the game had hung.

4. Not directly but you can increase the probability of air interdiction somewhat by altering your air doctrine.

5. In WitE you are essentially in the role of theatre commander and cannot make production decisions. BTW, it is a myth that the production changes that were possible in SF/WIR would have actually been made in real life even by Adolf Hitler; the cost of such changes would have simply been too prohibitive. In terms of chassis not a single German AFV that was in production when WWII began went out of production in the course of the War. For example, the Panzer II chassis was still being used to produce the Wespe SPA in 1945.

6. HQs actually represent a collection of assets dispersed thoughout the HQ's zone of operations. Allowing all these assets to be destroyed/captured would be even more distorting of reality than the current system where a portion are lost when the HQ is forced to displace.



76mm -> RE: observations on the game (8/5/2011 5:51:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw
4. Not directly but you can increase the probability of air interdiction somewhat by altering your air doctrine.


You sure about this? I've read that changing the air doctrine setting for interdiction results in fewer, bigger interdiction missions rather than more interdiction missions. Anybody know for sure?



Helpless -> RE: observations on the game (8/5/2011 6:23:55 AM)

I think percent to fly is the setting which may have effect.



mrchuck -> RE: observations on the game (8/12/2011 3:30:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw



1. The AI auto-bombing feature was put in simply to reduce micro-management of the air war. [snip]

2. The routed unit feature is one of the least understood aspects of the game. [snip]

3. Internal processing that was left on the display so players wouldn't think the game had hung.

4. Not directly but you can increase the probability of air interdiction somewhat by altering your air doctrine.

5. In WitE you are essentially in the role of theatre commander and cannot make production decisions. [snip]

6. HQs actually represent a collection of assets dispersed thoughout the HQ's zone of operations. [snip]



OK and fair enough. This clarified quite a few things, and I discovered how to prevent units escaping anyway. I'm still playing through for the first time and getting the hang of the air, HQ and supply niceties. Not sure I'll do all that well (only inflicted 3.5m casualties to Oct 41, not taken Leningrad or Moscow) but it's a learning experience. Overall, I'm finding it outstanding.

However there are some UI related things that the devs might consider having a look at in a future release:

1. Some sort of message box when reinforcements appear or units become unfrozen. It's a bit painful and seems unnecessary to compel the player to hunt around the whole map looking for interesting things of this type. Sure I can look in the reinforcement list, but why not make it easier?
2. Message box when new air units become available, same reason.
3. Rail movement over large distances is irritating because you can't see where the repaired lines are AND the unit you want to move at the same time.
4. A warning when you're about to uncover an HQ that is stacked with a combat unit, would be nice, but might be difficult to do.
5. More player control over interdiction--specify hex or unit, and take your chances based on available air and enemy action. Surely this is not unreasonable?
6. It's hard to locate the rail repair units especially in the early stages, due to visual clutter on screen. There should be a quick way to highlight all of them so you can see where your rail system is at. This is a game-critical function and they player should be given every assistance. I lost one for a couple of turns.
7. Some other games I've seen have a visual indicator for when a unit has or hasn't been moved. This would be very helpful with several hundred units to keep track of. The 'next unit' hot key doesn't seem useful for this. 'Next unit within higher HQ' or 'Next unit of type' would be better.
8. Message box when HQ displaces. It's not always obvious that this has happened and I've had to hunt for HQs a few times.
9. Hex location for units in various reports should be clickable and take you there.
10. It should be easier to prevent required garrison units from being accidentally moved once they're in place. Perhaps a 'garrison' option along with ready and refit, to set default unit action to nothing but terrorising the locals. This is not the same as static--I don't necessarily want to take all their trucks away so they can't chase partisans.
11. Since the player can't control the construction battalions which pop up in ever-increasing numbers, there should be some way to control their display. This is a major cause of visual clutter, and it also creates a click fest when you're moving units through them.
12. The default action for 0 strength units should not be to move with a stack of combat units. This might improve the flow of activity in a turn.

Just thinking about the message boxes, even a single one with all of the interesting events listed, at the start of the player turn would do the trick. You might also consider newsworthy events from other fronts based on the historical timeline, just to add a bit of flavour...



mrchuck -> RE: observations on the game (8/17/2011 9:31:07 AM)

Just gone back through the manual and had some 'D'oh' moments on points 6,7 and 9...RTFM indeed!





jaw -> RE: observations on the game (8/17/2011 12:54:10 PM)

If you press shift E you will see all the events that are happening that turn including your items 1 & 2. As for 5, think of air interdiction as the aerial equivalent of "opportunity fire" and you'll understand better why you don't control it. With the except of 6, 7, & 9 which you answered yourself I agree with your other points but I'm just a data guy; you'll have to take those points up with Gary & Pavel.



mrchuck -> RE: observations on the game (8/18/2011 8:02:45 AM)

More D'oh moments as I read more of the manual...so what am I left with?
  • Add messages to logistics/events report for displaced HQ locations in case you miss them -- still a problem and I don't _think_ the game has this, though at the rate I'm going, I'll probably find it in my next pass through the docs...
  • A better interface for rail movement maybe. Perhaps change 'r' hotkey so you can select unit/s and still see the rail network.
  • I still think interdiction should have some controls for the player, even if they're just suggestions to the AI and not so much orders.
  • garrison mode for combat units, set them to not to be selected in the side display so they don't get moved accidentally. Moreover, units NOT in garrison mode count not at all or maybe 10% for garrison--busy with other stuff!
And I'd still like to see some other things:

  • Show the size of required Axis garrisons for each city as an aid to the Axis player, not the percentage which has been met, which is rather less useful.
  • Better control of movement defaults for 0 strength units, to avoid clickfests. Perhaps a new preferences item--default is to set 0 strength units to be unselected in the side display? So if you want to move them, you have to actively make it happen.
  • A message box showing the additional casualties/losses incurred when an HQ, airfield or routed unit displaces. Just a nice to have, and would make them getting away a bit less irritating.
And I think something is a bug, or at least a UI FAIL:

  • How on earth can populations evacuate from cities surrounded by an iron ring of units? By helicopter? Levitation? This can't be right, and worse, it's very, very annoying :-) I can appreciate that this may be an abstraction for the population leaving before the ring actually closes, but in mid-1941 especially (I'm seeing it a lot) this is a stretch. In Orel the trams were still running...I just don't think this works right. Furthermore, does the Soviet player have to expend admin points and/or rail points to do this? I didn't think so...and how else will the population of Kiev get to Komsomolsk na Amur eh? That's a 2000 mile walk buddy.



unikey -> RE: observations on the game (8/18/2011 4:42:37 PM)

Yep hunting for HQ's is a pain!
Or allow the rail damage to show when a unit is selected
I'd like to be able to task air untis to certain roles,Cap,interdiction,air superiority etc, they have said alot of work is going into the air model
Garrison mode is sort of replicated with static mode although iirc thats due to be removed

It is disconcerting when the population does a runner but it does work when you remember its week turns and 10 miles a hex, the ones that get away ran first and fastest.

oh and as Stalin what do I care if they have to walk 2000 miles I've already evacuated the industry I wanted and the civilians that will be useful the rest will either encourage the red army to fight harder (Leningrad/Stalingrad) or hopefully be chased by the germans :)

Oh be careful which version of the manual you have especially if your playing with beta's as they make alot of changes and tweaks and the manual tends to lag behind



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