RE: Open your mind! (Full Version)

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glvaca -> RE: Open your mind! (8/10/2011 8:37:54 PM)

+1 Nikademus
You'll never pls everyone so you're better of doing what you think is right.

Concerning smaller units, what I've seen in FitE/SE from GRD, is smaller units have no organic arty and are as such unsupported and halved unless defending/attacking with devision type units.

I'm tempted to say this game could use an overrun rule but it's difficult to say if it fits within the total package. It would solve a few issues though.



Nikademus -> RE: Open your mind! (8/10/2011 9:01:42 PM)

what about the older War in Russia "Shatter" rule? Did that make it into WitE? Neat little feature.....if a unit was retreated enough times and failed an exp/morale check etc etc...the unit would be "Shattered" on the next retreat and be removed from the game with IIRC..half the surviving devices going back into the player's replacement pools (or maybe it was based on other factors.....been so long)

anyway, worked well....Panzer/Tank units with their multiple movement/attack ability per turn could "break out" and cause major havoc that way.



Jakerson -> RE: Open your mind! (8/10/2011 9:32:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Looking at the numbers Glantz give for German strength, it is surprising that the Germans are so strong in the summer of 1943. I compared this number with my OOB in my AAR game "The Wolf and the Bear" OOB for the end of May 1943. If Glantz numbers are correct, then the German army in my game is 500,000 men below Glantz figures, and that is in a very successful campaign where the German army has not lost an entire army at Stalingrad! If these numbers are correct, then it seems that WITE seriously underestimates German recuperative powers in early 1943!


In this wargame only that matters is how much CV you can bring in combat. Those TOE's and number of equipments are just gimmic. It dosent matter how much menpower you have as long as you can keep your CV about the same.



DorianGray -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 6:43:21 AM)

It is easy to forget and overlook the shear weight of the allied military industrial production.

When comparing allied aircraft & afv production against those produced by Germany, it is amazing that Germany lasted as long.

When the SU is able to field 30k afvs against GE's 3k, SU doesn't have to be nearly as organized or militarily proficient.




Jakerson -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 8:49:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

It is easy to forget and overlook the shear weight of the allied military industrial production.

When comparing allied aircraft & afv production against those produced by Germany, it is amazing that Germany lasted as long.

When the SU is able to field 30k afvs against GE's 3k, SU doesn't have to be nearly as organized or militarily proficient.


Allied mostly UK and USA gave Soviet Side massive amount of equipment. Soviet side fought not just with their own production but also supported by stuff made by UK and USA.

The Soviet Union got about 351.700 trucks and 78.000 Jeeps from the USA. Soviet also got got 4000-5000 tanks from Allied and 10 000 (yes ten thousand) air planes!

Full list of AFV and vehicles given to Soviet side by allied during war:
Bren Carriers - 2336
M3 Halftracks - 900
M3A1 Scout Cars - 3092
M3A1 Stuart - 1233
Valentine - 3487
Churchill - 258
M3A3 Lee/Grant - 1200
Matilda - 832
M4A2 75mm Sherman - 1750
M4A2 76mm Sherman - 1850
Half Tracks - 820
Light Trucks - 151,000
Heavy Trucks - 200,000
Jeeps - 51,000
Tractors - 8070

Full Leand lease planes given to Soviet:
P-39 Airacobra single-engine fighters - 4719
P-40 single-engine fighters - 2397
P-47 - 195
Hurricane single-engine fighters - 2952
Spitfire single-engine fighters - 1331
A-20 twin-engine light attack bombers - 2908
B-25 twin-engine medium bombers - 862

AT guns given:
37mm Anti-Tank 35
57mm Anti-Tank 375
37mm Anti-Aircraft 340
40mm Anti-Aircraft 5,400
90mm Anti-Aircraft 240

The Allies supplied 317,000 tons of explosive materials including 22 million shells that was equal to just over half of the total Soviet production of approximately 600,000 tons. Additionally the Allies supplied 103,000 tons of toluene, the primary ingredient of TNT. In addition to explosives and ammunition, 991 million miscellaneous shell cartridges were also provided to speed up the manufacturing of ammunition.

http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/lendlease.htm




Apollo11 -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 8:57:07 AM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

what about the older War in Russia "Shatter" rule? Did that make it into WitE? Neat little feature.....if a unit was retreated enough times and failed an exp/morale check etc etc...the unit would be "Shattered" on the next retreat and be removed from the game with IIRC..half the surviving devices going back into the player's replacement pools (or maybe it was based on other factors.....been so long)

anyway, worked well....Panzer/Tank units with their multiple movement/attack ability per turn could "break out" and cause major havoc that way.


Shatter is present and working in WitE Nik... [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"



Jakerson -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 9:05:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Shatter is present and working in WitE Nik... [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"


Yes shatter is there and have been there since the release and effect of shatters are told in numerous places in game manual.




Captain -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 2:08:34 PM)

on Quality, whatever initial advantage the Germans had was pretty much lost by 1944.

Too much emphasis has been placed on the effect of Stalin's purges. According to more recent research, about a maximum of 7% of the officer corps was purged and about 30% of those were later reintegrated, so only about 5% were permanently removed. Certainly, the early performance of Soviet officers in the winter war and 1941 was poor, but the Soviets were ruthless in clearing out the deadwood and replacing them with competent officers.

In 43-45, the average Soviet general at divisional level and higher was as competent as his German counterpart.

At lower levels, there was increasing problems in getting qualified replacements. As early as spring 42, the Germans were filling their infantry units with soldiers with as little as 2 months training. By 43, most German infantry units were composed of a small cadre of experienced NCOs/junior officers(many former NCOs), with the rest being mostly raw recruits.



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 2:53:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Looking at the numbers Glantz give for German strength, it is surprising that the Germans are so strong in the summer of 1943. I compared this number with my OOB in my AAR game "The Wolf and the Bear" OOB for the end of May 1943. If Glantz numbers are correct, then the German army in my game is 500,000 men below Glantz figures, and that is in a very successful campaign where the German army has not lost an entire army at Stalingrad! If these numbers are correct, then it seems that WITE seriously underestimates German recuperative powers in early 1943!


In this wargame only that matters is how much CV you can bring in combat. Those TOE's and number of equipments are just gimmic. It dosent matter how much menpower you have as long as you can keep your CV about the same.


CV numbers are an indication of units combat power, which is in turn, a function of unit ground elements accuracy, damage, rof, experience and fatigue. Besides that, combat power is influenced by terrain, weather and leader checks.

Basing all of your decisions on CV alone is not a sound idea. High CV correlates with high combat power, but not always and can often be very misleading.



76mm -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 3:00:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
In this wargame only that matters is how much CV you can bring in combat. Those TOE's and number of equipments are just gimmic. It dosent matter how much menpower you have as long as you can keep your CV about the same.


As far as I can tell, you've got this backwards--the CVs that we see are simply estimates based on the TOE/numbers of equipment. How the TOE/equipment actually performs in combat (which is heavily influenced by a range of factors, including terrain, leadership, experience, etc.) then determines the final CV.

After playing as a Sov, in my experience relatively high CVs can be a mirage, and they can drop like a rock when actual combat begins.



timmyab -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 4:04:38 PM)

^Yes, I've just recently started noticing this and I suspect that it's about to cost me dearly in my current game vs Ketza.Some apparently strong positions just evaporate at the slightest hint of battle whilst other seemingly weak units hold against overwhelming odds.I'm starting to think that a carpet defence is the best way to defend because it's guaranteed to sap MPs and what you need more than anything when defending a position is certainty.If the CVs on counters aren't reliable I'd much rather they weren't there at all.Same goes for forts.As a defender, you need to have at least a rough idea of how strong a position is otherwise the carpet is the only obvious (and boring) choice.



76mm -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 4:12:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab
Some apparently strong positions just evaporate at the slightest hint of battle whilst other seemingly weak units hold against overwhelming odds.I'm starting to think that a carpet defence is the best way to defend because it's guaranteed to sap MPs and what you need more than anything when defending a position is certainty.If the CVs on counters aren't reliable I'd much rather they weren't there at all.Same goes for forts.As a defender, you need to have at least a rough idea of how strong a position is otherwise the carpet is the only obvious (and boring) choice.

These are exactly the same conclusions I came to...



Jakerson -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 4:34:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
CV numbers are an indication of units combat power, which is in turn, a function of unit ground elements accuracy, damage, rof, experience and fatigue. Besides that, combat power is influenced by terrain, weather and leader checks.

Basing all of your decisions on CV alone is not a sound idea. High CV correlates with high combat power, but not always and can often be very misleading.


My point was that looking equipment and manpower numbers don’t mean that much. CV is most important stat. You really can play this game never looking how many men and equipment units have or never looking OOB but other way around playing would be very hard.

I don’t base my decision just CV as you suggest I always look terrains, I analyze battle reports so I can estimate where my enemy has deployed most of artillery and air support. I always recon where enemy reserves are and what is quality of reserves as best as I can. CV is just where you begin but still it is most important stat in this game.





Capt Cliff -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 5:23:18 PM)

Perhaps the concept of tactical expertise is missing from the games algorithm. I don't mean experience in battle or being battle hardened. The German was the inventor's of the Blitzkrieg and therefore had a tactical edge over the Russians in mechanized warfare. They held this edge until 43' then Russian superior numbers of troops came into affect helping the Russians. A similar analogy can be seen with Napoleon. Boney's use of divisions and Corps and the French Army's tactical expertise made them victorious in 1805. But when the Allies, meaning the Brit allies, learned to dance with the French and model their armies after the French they did better. They also avoided battle with the Master, which helped.

So I'd say in 41' the German mechanized tactical expertise was like a 4:1 advantage (or 5:1), in 42' it was down to 3:1 (the Russians were learning but could only win in a battle of attrition), but by 43' it was down to 1:1 (1.5:1) due to German loses of experience troops and the Russians finally getting the hang of it.

IMHO



Jakerson -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 6:40:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

Perhaps the concept of tactical expertise is missing from the games algorithm. I don't mean experience in battle or being battle hardened. The German was the inventor's of the Blitzkrieg and therefore had a tactical edge over the Russians in mechanized warfare. They held this edge until 43' then Russian superior numbers of troops came into affect helping the Russians. A similar analogy can be seen with Napoleon. Boney's use of divisions and Corps and the French Army's tactical expertise made them victorious in 1805. But when the Allies, meaning the Brit allies, learned to dance with the French and model their armies after the French they did better. They also avoided battle with the Master, which helped.

So I'd say in 41' the German mechanized tactical expertise was like a 4:1 advantage (or 5:1), in 42' it was down to 3:1 (the Russians were learning but could only win in a battle of attrition), but by 43' it was down to 1:1 (1.5:1) due to German loses of experience troops and the Russians finally getting the hang of it.

IMHO


This is feature that is already in the game Soviets mobile troops are lot weaker than German. Soviet mobile troops also get a lot less moving points than German.

Soviet Motorized troops have only 25MP at -41 while German panzer divisions have 50MP. German panzer divisions can move double as fast as soviet ones and is a lot stronger than soviet counterpart.

There is no sence to penaltize soviet even more than currently it is already. Soviet mobile troops really dont shine until they get tank corpses and even then it takes long time to train and build them to have any chance aganst German panzer divisions.




sillyflower -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 6:57:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

Although as has been said, it may be complete fantasy to say that the Axis has anything but the slimmest chance of winning the war, so a game victory doesn't necessarily have to mean they will win the war.  That probably means doing significantly better than the historical performance.


That's why I always play with house rule 'victory' means doing better than historically so there's a point to Germans hanging on.



Jakerson -> RE: Open your mind! (8/11/2011 7:16:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

Although as has been said, it may be complete fantasy to say that the Axis has anything but the slimmest chance of winning the war, so a game victory doesn't necessarily have to mean they will win the war.  That probably means doing significantly better than the historical performance.


That's why I always play with house rule 'victory' means doing better than historically so there's a point to Germans hanging on.


WITP Admirals edition is fun to play as Japanese even when you know that you will be overwhelmed by USA in the end with those mega zord CV and CVE TF's that USA can get end of the war.

It is still fun to try bashing USA fleets with coastal guns and kamikaze attacks even when you lose island after island you could still win scored victory.

USA and UK gave Soviet Union 400 000 trucks, 10 000 planes and 5000 tanks and 10 000 artillery as lend lease and Soviet had massive production of own. Germany had very slim chance to go through all that stuff I am very skeptical that Germany even had fuel to blitzkrieg all a way huge Soviet Union just from logistical reasons winning war on eastern front was impossible for Germans. It still doesn’t mean to have fun war-game out of it.



tigercub -> RE: Open your mind! (8/12/2011 1:32:57 AM)


Tiger



tigercub -> RE: Open your mind! (8/12/2011 1:35:14 AM)


quote:

But even in the last battles for Berlin, the Germans were out-killing Soviets, just not to the degree they did in 1941.

This is not true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

Helpless ill think you will find it is true Not because the germans were better at his stage they were mostly Karputt,but because the Russians were doing crazy attacks and pushing too hard to finnish the war and get to berlin before the US/UK .under Stalins orders!

Tiger




randallw -> RE: Open your mind! (8/12/2011 6:17:07 AM)

I like how someone is using the term 'Tank Corpses'. [:D]



Jakerson -> RE: Open your mind! (8/12/2011 6:38:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

I like how someone is using the term 'Tank Corpses'. [:D]


Thats what they are at least very early 42. Eatch time they are used you have to pull them behind the lines to refit as they get massive casulties in every battle.



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