Routing question (Full Version)

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Nikolaj -> Routing question (8/8/2011 9:16:17 PM)

Alright, so I've finally grown the courage to try to learn how to play this game. I've played through the turorial, as well as reading and playing a player made tutorial I found on this forum (the one in the Road to Leningrad scenario). I've also read most of the manual, although not in chronological order.

Anyway, I have a question, which is probably very newbish: I'm playing the Road to Minsk scenario, as the Germans, and I'm on my first turn. I punched a couple of holes in the Russian line, in the north and south, and then I poured my tanks and mechanized divisions through, linking them up behind the Russian lines, and creating a large pocket. Then I had my infantry divisions on my line start killing off the Russian units in the pocket. But after a while I realised that all the units I'd routed didn't displace to another location inside the pocket, but rather left the pocket altogether, and most of them are now to the east of my tank/mechanized divisions.

So I guess I don't quite understand displacement moves. Don't the units performing such moves have to trace a path to their new location? Or do they just "jump" there? Can they move through territory under my control (even if it's just "pending")? What's going on? HALP! :D

Any answer would be much appreciated.



Gargoil -> RE: Routing question (8/8/2011 9:25:09 PM)

I am new - I played the Tutorial then jumped right into the 41-45 campaign [;)]

Others can confirm this - but it does appear "pending" does not stop routs"?



Nikolaj -> RE: Routing question (8/8/2011 9:28:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gargoil

I am new - I played the Tutorial then jumped right into the 41-45 campaign [;)]


Just out of curiosity, how's that going?

Thanks for the answer, I did suspect that might be the reason. I guess in a 3 turn scenario, though, I can't really afford to loiter a turn, just to stop the Russians from routing outside of my pocket. I suppose I'll just push on, then. :)



Jakerson -> RE: Routing question (8/8/2011 9:46:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolaj

Alright, so I've finally grown the courage to try to learn how to play this game. I've played through the turorial, as well as reading and playing a player made tutorial I found on this forum (the one in the Road to Leningrad scenario). I've also read most of the manual, although not in chronological order.

Anyway, I have a question, which is probably very newbish: I'm playing the Road to Minsk scenario, as the Germans, and I'm on my first turn. I punched a couple of holes in the Russian line, in the north and south, and then I poured my tanks and mechanized divisions through, linking them up behind the Russian lines, and creating a large pocket. Then I had my infantry divisions on my line start killing off the Russian units in the pocket. But after a while I realised that all the units I'd routed didn't displace to another location inside the pocket, but rather left the pocket altogether, and most of them are now to the east of my tank/mechanized divisions.

So I guess I don't quite understand displacement moves. Don't the units performing such moves have to trace a path to their new location? Or do they just "jump" there? Can they move through territory under my control (even if it's just "pending")? What's going on? HALP! :D

Any answer would be much appreciated.


Since this is turn based game pockes are not created until the next turn. This simulate that defending side dont stay idle in real life.

You need to be able to hold enemy units one turn in pocket before they become isolated. This simulate the time it takes to clear the pocket and also gives defending side chance to try breakout from pocket or open gap that helps them to hold on longer.




Gargoil -> RE: Routing question (8/8/2011 10:37:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolaj


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gargoil

I am new - I played the Tutorial then jumped right into the 41-45 campaign [;)]


Just out of curiosity, how's that going?

Thanks for the answer, I did suspect that might be the reason. I guess in a 3 turn scenario, though, I can't really afford to loiter a turn, just to stop the Russians from routing outside of my pocket. I suppose I'll just push on, then. :)


I've surrounded Leningrad, got to within 50 miles of Moscow, took Smolensk and Kiev. Got stopped short of Stalino (I might have take it, but I was afraid to be stuck out in a bulge during Blizzard). It is now late Jan 42, and my troops have held the line very well. Bearly lost any hexes at all. I think I am doing quite well, but I old and experienced - I played the originally SPI War in the East (and War in Europe, oh, you Devs have to do that [:D]).



Nikolaj -> RE: Routing question (8/8/2011 11:33:47 PM)

Thanks, guys. I guess I'll have to contend myself with routing those Russians, but I'm certainly glad to clear this up before moving on to larger scenarios.

Sounds like you're right at home in the system, Gargoil. Good luck with the rest of the campaign. :)



misesfan -> RE: Routing question (8/9/2011 6:55:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolaj

Thanks, guys. I guess I'll have to contend myself with routing those Russians, but I'm certainly glad to clear this up before moving on to larger scenarios.

Sounds like you're right at home in the system, Gargoil. Good luck with the rest of the campaign. :)


You shouldnt do that - develop the pocket, wait until your next turn, and then liquidate the units inside. If you attack and rout units, chances are they will rout outside the pocket and reform to cause grief on later turns.



Nikolaj -> RE: Routing question (8/10/2011 1:28:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pwieland
You shouldnt do that - develop the pocket, wait until your next turn, and then liquidate the units inside. If you attack and rout units, chances are they will rout outside the pocket and reform to cause grief on later turns.


Thanks, I decided to restart and try waiting a turn before closing the pocket. It's certainly a lot more effective, even if my infantry had to wait another turn before attacking. I ended up getting a decisive victory, obviously making me very proud of myself. [:)]

Does anyone here have any tips on moving HQ's/airbases? I guess it's a must to move corps HQ's every turn (at least if the attached divisions are moving), and I guess it makes sense to move it before any of the divisions attack, so that it's in range to send support units. What about airbases, though? How often do people tend to move those forward? Do you move them all at once, or a few at a time? Also, any particular spots that are good to move them to, or is distance from the front all that counts?

Lots of questions, I know, but I was enjoying my short game, and I'll probably start one of the longer "road to" scenarios tomorrow, so I want to clear up as many of these things as possible, before then. [:)]

edit: also, I created a pocket along the northern edge of the map. Or at least I thought I did, because when I attacked the next turn, the enemy units routed and ended up outside the pocket. I assume this is because I used the edge of the map as a part of the pocket?



marcpennington -> RE: Routing question (8/10/2011 5:31:07 PM)

Actually, you don't need to wait a turn to destroy the Bialystok pocket. There's an exception rule in the patch notes that if a unit doesn't have a town with 21 or so hexes to rout to, it will surrender instead. Normally this is never a factor, but it is an exception that allows one to create and destroy the historical Army Group Center pockets on turn 1, as in that case you either will have taken the relevant towns, or "filled" them up with units that have already routed. Essentially advance your panzers (keeping in mind each town you occupy cuts out a potential 3 spots for routed units out of the pocket) to close the Bialystok pocket, and then start destroying to your hearts content...

If you're playing the full campaign game, be sure to advance in both Army Groups North and South as well first before one starts to destroy the pocket, as towns in those sectors can be eligible rout locations as well for the units facing Army Group Center.



Nikolaj -> RE: Routing question (8/10/2011 6:54:09 PM)

Thanks a lot. That's very useful knowledge, and I probably wouldn't have figured that out anytime soon. I guess I should probably take a closer look at the patch notes, to see what else has changed since the manual was written.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Routing question (8/11/2011 2:37:08 AM)

quote:


Does anyone here have any tips on moving HQ's/airbases?

Um.........yeah, I do. I read in somebody else's AAR that there's this trick of moving air bases by using the Committment level to move the aircraft back to the NR for free ( you can re-assign them the *same* turn as you do this ), by dialing the number to zero with your mouse and clicking on the "move" label. THEN moving the air base. When you get to your destination re-assign some aircraft to the airbase to match mission requirements, and raise the committment level back to 5 or 6 or whatever it was before the move. And the aircraft will NOT have spent any of their travel on moving "overground" by foot or by rail either one. They will have a significantly higher travel left to use *this* turn for attacks and or CAP, etc.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/2DF4A2A2861346B5844BC5676D1576E6.gif[/image]



heliodorus04 -> RE: Routing question (8/11/2011 5:00:37 AM)

Larry,
I'm glad to learn this.
BTW, is it a bug or WAD?



Jakerson -> RE: Routing question (8/11/2011 8:31:34 AM)

I have always wondered why air units that are assigned from national reserve to air base by using AP points arrive with 100% mileage used. When you use that aviation commitment button to move air units from NR to air base air units arrive 0% mileage used. Is this bug or designed feature?   As far as I know if you move more air units by using aviation commitment auto feature you can start using air units at same turn as they arrive 0% mileage used but if you use AP’ you cannot use those air units at same turn.



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Routing question (8/11/2011 1:54:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
I have always wondered why air units that are assigned from national reserve to air base by using AP points arrive with 100% mileage used. When you use that aviation commitment button to move air units from NR to air base air units arrive 0% mileage used. Is this bug or designed feature?   As far as I know if you move more air units by using aviation commitment auto feature you can start using air units at same turn as they arrive 0% mileage used but if you use AP’ you cannot use those air units at same turn.


It's a bit like what happens with Ground Support Units. If you use the support level feature to pull (or push) SU's around the various commands you do not spend any AP's, but you lack any kind of control on who gets what.

As far as I know, SU's moved by the support level mechanic can be reassigned on the same turn they "arrive" on the HQ you're transferring them out of. Reattached SU's can be involved in combat the same turn they have been transferred (either there's been an AP expense or not).

And here's the difference that looks odd: air units with 0% mileage won't take part in any battle during the phasing player turn. I don't see any cogent reason for the asymmetry between Ground Support Units and Air Group Units, which have a similar role on the battlefield.



Jakerson -> RE: Routing question (8/11/2011 4:52:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
It's a bit like what happens with Ground Support Units. If you use the support level feature to pull (or push) SU's around the various commands you do not spend any AP's, but you lack any kind of control on who gets what.


This is not totally true. For Soviet side IAD bases always get fighters or fighters bombers from auto moving. BAD bases level bombers and ShAP always get tactical bombers. VVS bases always get transports and recon planes.

So if you need more fighters you choose IAD base if more level bombers BAD base if tactical bombers ShAP base. You have almost total control witch planes you get at least from fighters, level bombers and tactical bombers auto feature dont want to put wrong type of planes in certain bases.

If you want to mix fighters with ShAP or BAD bases then you need to use AP's or if you want bombers to IAD base then AP's again.

For German side I dont know never tested.



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Routing question (8/11/2011 5:25:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
This is not totally true. For Soviet side IAD bases always get fighters or fighters bombers from auto moving. BAD bases level bombers and ShAP always get tactical bombers. VVS bases always get transports and recon planes.


Now, that's something interesting I hadn't realized yet. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL:Jakerson
If you want to mix fighters with ShAP or BAD bases then you need to use AP's or if you want bombers to IAD base then AP's again.


Ehem, transferring Air Group Units from base to reserve, and from reserve to base, you don't need to spend any AP's. It just takes time (more if you manually deploy the Air Group, since its mileage is 0%, thus planes are effectively out of the air for another turn).



Nikolaj -> RE: Routing question (8/12/2011 2:10:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:


Does anyone here have any tips on moving HQ's/airbases?

Um.........yeah, I do. I read in somebody else's AAR that there's this trick of moving air bases by using the Committment level to move the aircraft back to the NR for free ( you can re-assign them the *same* turn as you do this ), by dialing the number to zero with your mouse and clicking on the "move" label. THEN moving the air base. When you get to your destination re-assign some aircraft to the airbase to match mission requirements, and raise the committment level back to 5 or 6 or whatever it was before the move. And the aircraft will NOT have spent any of their travel on moving "overground" by foot or by rail either one. They will have a significantly higher travel left to use *this* turn for attacks and or CAP, etc.


Thanks, that's a good tip, and I will definitely keep it in mind.



DorianGray -> RE: Routing question (8/12/2011 1:37:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
It's a bit like what happens with Ground Support Units. If you use the support level feature to pull (or push) SU's around the various commands you do not spend any AP's, but you lack any kind of control on who gets what.


This is not totally true. For Soviet side IAD bases always get fighters or fighters bombers from auto moving. BAD bases level bombers and ShAP always get tactical bombers. VVS bases always get transports and recon planes.

So if you need more fighters you choose IAD base if more level bombers BAD base if tactical bombers ShAP base. You have almost total control witch planes you get at least from fighters, level bombers and tactical bombers auto feature dont want to put wrong type of planes in certain bases.

If you want to mix fighters with ShAP or BAD bases then you need to use AP's or if you want bombers to IAD base then AP's again.

For German side I dont know never tested.


I have done this and tested it with the GE. You can influence the aircraft that is auto-assigned by changing the RANGE LIMITS of the receiving GE airbase.

Also, if you don't like what you get at from using the auto-deploy, you can back it out by reducing the airbase ASSIGNMENT LEVEL and hit the MOVE button.

From what I have noticed, the aircraft that is auto-deployed is based off of the air formations with the largest ready total.

NOTE - to effective use this "feature" requires a lot of micro-management to get it just right for the GE.

In closing, you need to keep a close eye on that airbases stockpile of fuel and ammunition. If you auto-deploy a bunch of aircraft of a particuliar type ( like JU-88As ) to an airbase with limited ammunition available, you will get a bunch of bombers that will be idle and suffering from lack of ordinace to deliver for the immediate turn.



Nikolaj -> RE: Routing question (8/12/2011 4:31:14 PM)

Alright, so now I'm seeing some more odd routing behaviour. In the "road to Smolensk" scenario, I've encircled Moscow, and waited for a turn so that the pocket would close properly. It's now one turn later, and I'm closing the pocket, but half of the units are routing out of the pocket instead of surrendering. Is this because Moscow is a supply center or something like that (meaning that it can never be properly encircled)?



Jakerson -> RE: Routing question (8/12/2011 6:38:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolaj

Alright, so now I'm seeing some more odd routing behaviour. In the "road to Smolensk" scenario, I've encircled Moscow, and waited for a turn so that the pocket would close properly. It's now one turn later, and I'm closing the pocket, but half of the units are routing out of the pocket instead of surrendering. Is this because Moscow is a supply center or something like that (meaning that it can never be properly encircled)?


Are those units in isolated mode? If you turn supply mode on from map features is there red circle around pocketed units?

If not then pocket is to complitely sealed. If you turn hex ownership on and take screenshot I could try to check why it is not sealed.



Nikolaj -> RE: Routing question (8/12/2011 9:35:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
Are those units in isolated mode? If you turn supply mode on from map features is there red circle around pocketed units?

If not then pocket is to complitely sealed. If you turn hex ownership on and take screenshot I could try to check why it is not sealed.


Thanks for the help. Yes, according to the supply mode, they should be isolated. Here's the picture you asked for. This is from the autosave, at the start of the turn:





[image]local://upfiles/34972/74299E8F724948EB836CC4DA722E9AD9.jpg[/image]



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Routing question (8/12/2011 10:35:51 PM)

The HQs and airbases in the image above will route out of the pocket, the ground units will not. That should be what is happening.



Nikolaj -> RE: Routing question (8/12/2011 10:44:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

The HQs and airbases in the image above will route out of the pocket, the ground units will not. That should be what is happening.


Yeah, that's what I figured, and I almost thought I'd made a mistake, but after reloading, I tried again and got another rout. Here's the same picture as above, except I moved and attacked with the 110th infantry division. Notice how the 75th rifle division has routed out of the pocket:



[image]local://upfiles/34972/B9DBEE709CCB4A5C955C0D347FEAC4A3.jpg[/image]



Jakerson -> RE: Routing question (8/12/2011 11:29:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolaj


Thanks for the help. Yes, according to the supply mode, they should be isolated. Here's the picture you asked for. This is from the autosave, at the start of the turn:


Looks isolated ok. As PeeDeeAitch said those units that can relocate out of sealed pockets are HQ and Air Bases. It works as intended this simulate the fact that in many cases Generals and high staff were evacuated from pockets with planes when pocket was about to collapse. There is high risk General getting killed if HQ is forced to relocate out from pocket. I have lost my best general some times this way. :(

This happened in World War 2 for example when Africa Corps was sealed in North Africa Luftwaffe saved Rommel and his HQ and also People were saved from Stalingrad pockets by Luftwaffe.

Planes can always fly out from pocket with relocate but they have to leave damaged planes behind and also bases take some extra attrition. This simulates air force capacity to emergency air lift itself out from pockets.

No other unit can flee just HQ’s and Air bases.



pompack -> RE: Routing question (8/13/2011 12:23:53 AM)


Hit shift-o or the isolation display icon to insure that the units in question really are isolated. If they are, they will be highlighted in a rather unmistakable and brilliant red. I don't see why they would not be isolated but maybe there is some special rule for Moscow.



Nikolaj -> RE: Routing question (8/13/2011 12:33:39 AM)

They are indeed outlined in red in the isolation display. I think I may have an idea about what's going on, though. I know that units that are already in a routed state can, but I'm sure this one wasn't. But looking at the 75th rifle division in the screenshot I posted above, I notice that it has a CV of 0. I'm not sure, but it's possible that it had a CV of 0 before I attacked it, so maybe it was just an empty unit. Can empty combat units rout out of pockets?



randallw -> RE: Routing question (8/13/2011 9:09:19 AM)

If you move next to an enemy unit with CV 0 it will try to run away, by the game rules.



Jakerson -> RE: Routing question (8/13/2011 10:24:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

If you move next to an enemy unit with CV 0 it will try to run away, by the game rules.


Yeah I take it that routed 0 CV units have zero will left to stand and fight they just drop their guns and run like hell when enemy comes next to them.

I kind of like this rule even there have been a some of people calling routing rules bad. Eatch time unit routs it lose large partition of artillery and men. It is hard to isolate them but thats propably realistic as routed men get more fuel to run even faster to all directions when they see enemy coming.

Germany getting 50MP mobile troops justify current rout rules more then good.



Nikolaj -> RE: Routing question (8/13/2011 12:35:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

If you move next to an enemy unit with CV 0 it will try to run away, by the game rules.


But I didn't just move next to it, though. It was stacked with a HQ and another combat unit, which didn't have a CV of 0, and it was part of the battle when I attacked the hex. It still routed out of the pocket, though.



pompack -> RE: Routing question (8/14/2011 2:03:55 PM)

Move it to the Tech Forum and see what Helpless says about it.



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