How to properly use support units (Full Version)

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Nikolaj -> How to properly use support units (8/12/2011 10:09:23 PM)

I've been playing a couple of scenarios to learn the game, and my plan is to try and focus on a different aspect for each game I play. So far I've pretty much been ignoring support units, apart from setting all infantry corps to 1 and all panzer corps to 3, but for my next game, I'd like to give the whole support system a closer look.

If I'm understanding the system correctly, you can either manually attach support units to whichever units you want, or you can have the HQ's automatically shuffle them around (or mix and match, obviously). In the latter case, as I understand it, an HQ will temporarily send support units to help its attached combat units in battle, as long as they're within 5 hexes, and each SU attached to that HQ can take part in several battles each turn.

Does this work all the way up the chain of command, though? What I mean is, will support units attached to an army HQ - for instance - help out combat units attached to a corps HQ attached to that army HQ, as long as the corps HQ is within range of the army HQ, and the combat units are within range of the corps HQ?

I would also be greatly interested in hearing how people use the support system. Do you only attach units manually, or do you use the automatic system? If you use the automatic system, how do you adjust the support level for different kinds of corps?



pompack -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/13/2011 12:13:27 AM)

Support units help only combat units attached directly to the same HQ.

Quick and dirty approach to cheaply (relatively) getting support units where you want them. The following is written around the Russians organization, but the same principle applies to the Germans

1. Set STAVKA level to 9
2. Set all Front levels to 1 (otherwise SUs will not flow through them either up or down
3. Set all army levels to 1 and all corps levels to 0
4. Go back and set only the armies that you want to support with SUs to 3 (Note that if you wish to keep any corps active you can set them to 3 as well)
5. Run three to five turns (This allows SUs from unsupported HQs to flow up to STAVKA and then down to the ones you wish to support; the longer you wait the fewer you have to move manually and pay APs but you may be in a hurry to get support to where you need it)
6. Lock the armies (or corps if you wish) you want to support and manually add any additional SUs that did not flow naturally
7. Lock all fronts containing supported armies. Set all other fronts (and inactive armies) to 0. Add construction units to supported Fronts as desired.

As the Germans, you would want to flow everything down to the corps level instead of the army level.




FredSanford3 -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/13/2011 12:29:17 AM)

Also, I'd consider when attacking, panzer/motorized units will often be more than 5 hexes away from their corps hq.  This has 2 main ramifications regarding SU's and mobile units:
1. If you want to make sure SU's are available to your panzers, you'll need to directly attach them.  This trades flexibility for certainty.
2. You might want to consider reversing the support levels of Infantry and Panzer corps.  If your panzer divisions are >5 hexes away from HQ, no amount of artillery in the Panzer corps hq will do you any good (you can't attach artillery SU's to divisions). You might as well put them where they can be used, supporting the infantry.

Besides, most of your deliberate attacking will be by your infantry, and the panzer/mot divs used for exploitation.



Nikolaj -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/13/2011 12:46:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

Support units help only combat units attached directly to the same HQ.

Quick and dirty approach to cheaply (relatively) getting support units where you want them. The following is written around the Russians organization, but the same principle applies to the Germans

1. Set STAVKA level to 9
2. Set all Front levels to 1 (otherwise SUs will not flow through them either up or down
3. Set all army levels to 1 and all corps levels to 0
4. Go back and set only the armies that you want to support with SUs to 3 (Note that if you wish to keep any corps active you can set them to 3 as well)
5. Run three to five turns (This allows SUs from unsupported HQs to flow up to STAVKA and then down to the ones you wish to support; the longer you wait the fewer you have to move manually and pay APs but you may be in a hurry to get support to where you need it)
6. Lock the armies (or corps if you wish) you want to support and manually add any additional SUs that did not flow naturally
7. Lock all fronts containing supported armies. Set all other fronts (and inactive armies) to 0. Add construction units to supported Fronts as desired.

As the Germans, you would want to flow everything down to the corps level instead of the army level.




This sounds pretty good. I'm a bit unsure about one point, though. I though that all HQ's would adapt to the support level immediately after the turn where I changed it. I sounds like I have to wait for a number of turns for it to really kick in, though. Is this because support units only move one "step" (from one HQ to the next in line) per turn? Also, I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by keeping corps active, that you mention in point 4. Is this specifically for the Soviet side?

quote:

Also, I'd consider when attacking, panzer/motorized units will often be more than 5 hexes away from their corps hq. This has 2 main ramifications regarding SU's and mobile units:
1. If you want to make sure SU's are available to your panzers, you'll need to directly attach them. This trades flexibility for certainty.
2. You might want to consider reversing the support levels of Infantry and Panzer corps. If your panzer divisions are >5 hexes away from HQ, no amount of artillery in the Panzer corps hq will do you any good (you can't attach artillery SU's to divisions). You might as well put them where they can be used, supporting the infantry.

Besides, most of your deliberate attacking will be by your infantry, and the panzer/mot divs used for exploitation.


Thanks for the advice. I've been very careful about keeping my HQ's close to my motorized divisions, so far, but I've only been playing the small scenarios so I'm sure that'll be much harder in the future. And I'm not afraid to admit that I've made several screw-ups regarding HQ's, sending one or more of them 25+ hexes to the rear. [:)]

You're right that infantry divisions do more deliberate attacks. Are HQ support units only sent to deliberate attacks, though? It would certainly make sense if they are, and that would certainly require a re-evalution of my play-style so far.

Thanks for advice, guys.



pompack -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/13/2011 1:40:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolaj

This sounds pretty good. I'm a bit unsure about one point, though. I though that all HQ's would adapt to the support level immediately after the turn where I changed it. I sounds like I have to wait for a number of turns for it to really kick in, though. Is this because support units only move one "step" (from one HQ to the next in line) per turn? Also, I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by keeping corps active, that you mention in point 4. Is this specifically for the Soviet side?



Sorry, sloppy wording. The Russians have a bunch more armies than they can use at first. By "active" I just meant it is one I attached combat units to instead of setting it on a rail line out of the way somewhere a long distance from the front.

As to the time: yes, they kind of move all at once, sometimes, maybe it seems, perhaps except sometimes they don't. In fact there are usually a few that have not moved in spite of being attached to a HQ set to zero even after four or five turns.

Now there is a considerable difference in philosophy between the Russians and the Germans since the Russians can always build whatever they want if it is not available and they are willing to spend the APs. The Germans have what they have, so they have to be a little more careful with sequencing: If you only have three units, you will spend a lot of time diddling around trying to get them to automatically flow to where you want them. In that case you need to manually move them to where you want them. Just be carefull: any SUs in excess to your target number will flow away after you spend your APs to move them unless you lock the HQ or set the SU threshold high enough that that particular SU will stay in place.



Nikolaj -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/13/2011 3:53:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack
Sorry, sloppy wording. The Russians have a bunch more armies than they can use at first. By "active" I just meant it is one I attached combat units to instead of setting it on a rail line out of the way somewhere a long distance from the front.


No problem. I kind of figured it was something like that, but I've yet to try out the Russians, apart from the tutorial scenario, so I'm still not very familiar with their command structure (and I certainly didn't know they had HQs to spare [:)]).

Thanks for all the great advice, guys. If anyone has more, please post it.



Fänrik Stål -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/13/2011 2:57:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolaj
You're right that infantry divisions do more deliberate attacks. Are HQ support units only sent to deliberate attacks, though?


I seem to remember reading somewhere (either in the forum or in the manual) that if the HQ is in range it will always support deliberate attacks, but hasty attacks it will only support if the HQ itself hasn't moved during the turn.



misesfan -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/13/2011 4:46:11 PM)

Thats correct. One thing I have done is to shift some of the Panzer Artillery SU's over to 16th and 18th Armies, since they will be assaulting Leningrad in the North.



Harrybanana -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/13/2011 6:13:20 PM)

I have a new question on this topic. I've read on this Forum that as the Russian Player it is a good idea to build some Sapper Regiments and Independent Tank Battalions to add to your Cavalry Corps when they become available in December 41. Since it takes time for these support units to gain strength, experience and morale I understand that you are supposed to start building them early. My question is, what HQ unit should be used to build them?

So far I have been building them with the STAVKA HQ as I figured this way I could then assign them to the Cavalry Corps without paying any AP costs. However, to prevent them from being auto-assigned to other HQs further down the chain of command I have had to "Lock" STAVKA. As I understand it "Locking" STAVKA effectively prevents any support units from moving anywhere, is that right? If so this means that I have to manually move all my support units around which costs APs. It also means that I have to put STAVKA on a train and move it from Front to Front via rail in order to manually move the other new support units that STAVKA auto-builds on its own (at the moment mainly Howitzer units) to my Army HQs; I was really hoping to avoid this micro-management.

The other option I suppose would be to use one of those otherwise unused Army HQs to build the support units and then just "Lock" it. But then I would have to pay APs to transfer the support units to the Cavalry Corps.

Have I missed something? Is there another way to do this? What do other people do?

EdIT: Nikolaj, sorry about adding my question to your post, I just felt this was the best place to ask as the questions are related. But if you think I'm hijacking your thread I'll move it?




pompack -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/13/2011 8:09:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

I have a new question on this topic. I've read on this Forum that as the Russian Player it is a good idea to build some Sapper Regiments and Independent Tank Battalions to add to your Cavalry Corps when they become available in December 41. Since it takes time for these support units to gain strength, experience and morale I understand that you are supposed to start building them early. My question is, what HQ unit should be used to build them?

So far I have been building them with the STAVKA HQ as I figured this way I could then assign them to the Cavalry Corps without paying any AP costs. However, to prevent them from being auto-assigned to other HQs further down the chain of command I have had to "Lock" STAVKA. As I understand it "Locking" STAVKA effectively prevents any support units from moving anywhere, is that right? If so this means that I have to manually move all my support units around which costs APs. It also means that I have to put STAVKA on a train and move it from Front to Front via rail in order to manually move the other new support units that STAVKA auto-builds on its own (at the moment mainly Howitzer units) to my Army HQs; I was really hoping to avoid this micro-management.

The other option I suppose would be to use one of those otherwise unused Army HQs to build the support units and then just "Lock" it. But then I would have to pay APs to transfer the support units to the Cavalry Corps.

Have I missed something? Is there another way to do this? What do other people do?

EdIT: Nikolaj, sorry about adding my question to your post, I just felt this was the best place to ask as the questions are related. But if you think I'm hijacking your thread I'll move it?





Unfortunately you cannot move units FROM an HQ TO a combat unit; you can only pull into a combat unit which alway takes 1 AP

So in answer to your question, in order to prevent having to pay twice (since you can only PULL from a HQ in your chain-of-command) you should build them in STAVKA. As you noted, you should either lock STAVKA or lock or everything else to zero to keep them from flowing out as soon as you build them. Now note that I build 2-3 in every front-line Army HQ early to use for digging; when I get around to building corps I will always end up with at least one or two in each major (colored) Army HQ.



Harrybanana -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/13/2011 9:21:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack


Unfortunately you cannot move units FROM an HQ TO a combat unit; you can only pull into a combat unit which alway takes 1 AP

So in answer to your question, in order to prevent having to pay twice (since you can only PULL from a HQ in your chain-of-command) you should build them in STAVKA. As you noted, you should either lock STAVKA or lock or everything else to zero to keep them from flowing out as soon as you build them. Now note that I build 2-3 in every front-line Army HQ early to use for digging; when I get around to building corps I will always end up with at least one or two in each major (colored) Army HQ.



Thank you. I didn't build any Sapper Regiments early as I built construction battalions and RR Brigades instead. Perhaps next game I'll build the Sapper Regiments instead. How are they for digging in compared with the construction units?



pompack -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/13/2011 10:42:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack


Unfortunately you cannot move units FROM an HQ TO a combat unit; you can only pull into a combat unit which alway takes 1 AP

So in answer to your question, in order to prevent having to pay twice (since you can only PULL from a HQ in your chain-of-command) you should build them in STAVKA. As you noted, you should either lock STAVKA or lock or everything else to zero to keep them from flowing out as soon as you build them. Now note that I build 2-3 in every front-line Army HQ early to use for digging; when I get around to building corps I will always end up with at least one or two in each major (colored) Army HQ.



Thank you. I didn't build any Sapper Regiments early as I built construction battalions and RR Brigades instead. Perhaps next game I'll build the Sapper Regiments instead. How are they for digging in compared with the construction units?


Actually I don't know because I have never built them. When I neeed pure construction, I build only RR Brigades; they build faster than CBs, they cost the same but can also repair rail lines. They take more manpower, but the Russians have a lot of manpower, especially early.

As to Sappers, they are probably not quite as good as CBs, but they can also fight and they still have a job after the Russians go on the offensive.



Q-Ball -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/16/2011 9:57:53 PM)

I would start out ONLY building RR Bdes. Construction Bns are a waste of time.

I would start building Sappers though somewhere around Mud season, and same for the tanks. They can get a little experience anyway, though for the most part they'll be pretty green during the Blizzard. Can't help that.

I would attach 1 or 2 Sappers and 1 or 2 Tank Bns to each Cav Corps in December.



Flaviusx -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/16/2011 10:41:57 PM)

The problem with building sapper regiments first is these may get introduced into battle, and get slaughtered in 1941.

You really just want diggers at this point, not combat engineers. Later on, as Q-ball sez, build sappers galore, but the best thing you can do for the Sovs in the early game is entrench and give yourself a force multiplier.

My own strategy is to starve armies in 1941 of SUs. A handful of arty units (and by handful I mean 2-3), some construction assets, and that's it. Don't build any arty at all, btw, what you have to start with is enough to get you through the summer if you husband it correctly.

Concentrate the rest in STAVKA. Then, gradually, as the tide turns and winter approaches, reinforce your armies (and send attachments to corps.)

Soviets HQ are under constant threat of displacement in 1941 and can lose scads of SUs this way and it's important to reduce your exposure to this until the front stabilizes.



unikey -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/17/2011 1:04:24 AM)


" you should either lock STAVKA or lock or everything else to zero to keep them from flowing out as soon as you build them"

"Set all Front levels to 1 (otherwise SUs will not flow through them either up or down"

I'm confused



pompack -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/17/2011 2:59:40 AM)


Two unrelated topics

quote:

ORIGINAL: unikey


" you should either lock STAVKA or lock or everything else to zero to keep them from flowing out as soon as you build them"
When using manual SU movement, if you choose to build a lot of SUs in STAVKA and then let them sit there to fill out before you move them manually, you must do something to keep them from moving automatically.

"Set all Front levels to 1 (otherwise SUs will not flow through them either up or down"
This refers to using the automatic allocation option. SUs will not flow through an intermediate HQ (like a front) if the level is set to zero.

I'm confused




cherryfunk -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/22/2011 10:40:31 AM)

Okay, I'm finally trying to wrap my head around Support Units and have a question:

Turn 1, XXVI Corps (AGN - 3 INF divs) has 7 attached support units, and a support level of only 3.

Its support units are: Bicycle Recon; Gun Battalion (105mm); Panzerjager; Flak; Pioneer; 2 Construction Battalions

Now since its support level is at 3, does this mean 4 of those units will be transferred back up the chain unless I either increase the support level or manually transfer them to individual divisions within the corps?

Also, what's up with it having just one artillery battalion?  Isn't that light for an infantry corps?  These guys are heading for Leningrad, do I need to figure out a way to get them more artillery support?




cpt flam -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/22/2011 11:12:35 AM)

support being 3 mean that it will try to have 3 of each type
that will of course be impossible
exemple: only 1 bicycle recon in all OOB
you will have to micromanage a part between those having a lot & others



Jakerson -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/22/2011 12:16:48 PM)

After playing multiple games against human opponents now I think that:  

I do not think micro managing SU is that important as some people make it. I have won decisive victories against human opponents in multiple scenarios without micromanaging SU more than making sure that more important armies have a lot of them and less important parts of front have less SU's.  

For me SU’s are just turbo button that can be turned ON or OFF to boosts some parts of the front if I want it.   Still there are some thumb rules for using SU’s armies that defend urban hexes should always have a lot of SU as game mechanics give them ability to commit more SU’s in combat than when combatting in other hexes. There is sense to use this rule of extra SU’s in urban combat if you are sure that your opponent frontal assault against Urban hexes.



cherryfunk -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/22/2011 3:54:33 PM)

quote:

support being 3 mean that it will try to have 3 of each type

Ah I see, the manual is a bit unclear on this.  It lists the 'types' as "Armoured, Anti-Tank, Artillery, Anti-aircraft, Rocket, etc."  -- that "etc." is confusing (note that 'Recon' isn't mentioned) -- they should really give a definite and closed ended list, and further each support unit in the game UI should have its 'type' easily visible since this is rather important (it would also be good to have a quick list of how many units of each type an HQ has on its details pop-up -- having to count manually to see if you've reached your Arty limit is a bit of a pain...).  I think this area could use some more transparency.

quote:

For me SU’s are just turbo button that can be turned ON or OFF to boosts some parts of the front if I want it.   Still there are some thumb rules for using SU’s armies that defend urban hexes should always have a lot of SU as game mechanics give them ability to commit more SU’s in combat than when combatting in other hexes. There is sense to use this rule of extra SU’s in urban combat if you are sure that your opponent frontal assault against Urban hexes.

Can you explain a bit more how you turn this 'turbo' button 'ON or OFF'?  Is it just by locking some HQs, or do you reduce ('SUB') your support level to less important HQs to 2 or even 1?





sajer -> RE: How to properly use support units (8/31/2011 11:34:39 PM)

I was reading this thread with interest.  I noticed it kinda died - no new posts for about 10 days...anyone else want to chime in?  Some of you veterans??? 

The manual (as said here) is a bit foggy on SU's - and newbie's could use all the help that they can get.  I think SU's are very important - the difference between victory and defeat.



sajer -> RE: How to properly use support units (9/1/2011 12:26:17 PM)

pompack's post is great.  AP's are everything.  I would much rather use them on replacing leaders or attaching SU's to key divisions in vital battles.



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