JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (Full Version)

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Gewehr43 -> JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/17/2011 11:40:24 AM)

Even when attached to the same airfield fighter aircraft such as ME110s and or Me 109's fighters (not recon versions) with drop tanks, (well within range of the destination hex) do not come up as eligable to be added to the missions... what is the trick here or are they just supposed to be shot down by the Soviets?



Jakerson -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/17/2011 12:43:01 PM)

Are you sure those fighters unit have not fly up all their mileage doing other missions?

Are you sure those fighters units number of ready planes is not below threshold percentage required to fly in air doctrine? If it is 50% then air units less ready planes than 50% of max TOE cannot fly missions.

Are you sure that you did not move those fighter units from national reserve to air base same turn than you are trying to use them in supply mission? Air units that are moved from national reserves to air base cannot take part in air missions until next turn.



Gewehr43 -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/17/2011 1:29:59 PM)

No aircraft from those bases have flown any mission nor have any airbases moved nor have any of those air units been deployed from the National Reserve this turn. Zero % listed for all air units. This is the first thing on a fresh turn. I have two air supply bases. One in the south that has about 60 JU52's and 30 Me 109's that I want to fly about 10 hexes. JU52 will fly but no fighters are listed as available. In the northern base almost 200 Ju52 with 50 or 60 110's. Only 2 Me110 E models will fly as escorts none of the C models show as available. There are of course other fighters around that also are not available, but they can escort bombers...go figure. This is making it impossible to drop supply because russian biplanes are still able to shoot down unescorted transports. Required to fly is set to 5%, but that number doesn't seem to matter. This is the latest patch as far as I know - beta 36



Joel Billings -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/17/2011 5:03:20 PM)

Erik noted this problem in one of his games, and Pavel made an adjustment to air transport missions in our current 1.05 test version in order to get them to do a better job protecting the transports.



Mynok -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/17/2011 6:23:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gewehr43

No aircraft from those bases have flown any mission nor have any airbases moved nor have any of those air units been deployed from the National Reserve this turn. Zero % listed for all air units. This is the first thing on a fresh turn. I have two air supply bases. One in the south that has about 60 JU52's and 30 Me 109's that I want to fly about 10 hexes. JU52 will fly but no fighters are listed as available. In the northern base almost 200 Ju52 with 50 or 60 110's. Only 2 Me110 E models will fly as escorts none of the C models show as available. There are of course other fighters around that also are not available, but they can escort bombers...go figure. This is making it impossible to drop supply because russian biplanes are still able to shoot down unescorted transports. Required to fly is set to 5%, but that number doesn't seem to matter. This is the latest patch as far as I know - beta 36


Interesting that you supply at the start of your turn. The only time I do this is when I want to use bombers to fly supply. Otherwise, I fly supply always as the very last thing. I rarely recall any interception issues, probably because the Soviet fighters were used up doing defensive missions.



Gewehr43 -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/17/2011 8:39:23 PM)

It's not that I do this as a matter of routine at the start of the turn, I don't. I had to learn this lesson the hard way. The fact that I tried to do it at the start of the turn this time was in order to eliminate anything I may have done from being the problem. If I go ahead now and do my turn with no fighter protection my JU52s will be decimated yet again and need to be rebuilt yet again. When is this next patch comming out to fix fhis? I can't do my turn until it is. Thanks for the heads up that the issue is being addressed.

A limit on air attacks in one turn on a single airfield to attrit fighter units and destroy aircrew would help too. Like 5 times tops. The soviets search the front for fighter airfields and attack them 30+ times to pummel and eventually wear out the defenses. This must be a game glich which has become a successful tactic forcing German airfields to remain well behind the front. This was hardly going on in August 1941. When the Russians get better planes they will whipe out the Luftwaffe like this.



Jakerson -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/17/2011 10:05:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gewehr43
A limit on air attacks in one turn on a single airfields to attrit fighter units and destroy aircrew would help too. Like 5 times tops. The soviets search the front for fighter airfields and attack them 30+ times to pummel and eventually wear out the defenses. This must be a game glich which has become a successful tactic forcing German airfields to remain well behind the front. This was hardly going on in August 1941. When the Russians get better planes they will whipe out the Luftwaffe like this.


Attacking against air bases is becoming less effective in next patch. There is more about it in 1.5 patch thread.




Gewehr43 -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/19/2011 11:37:50 AM)

Well, less than 1% of the available escorts should be easy to improve upon. At this point the German transports are just practice targets and the air rsupply portion of the game is MIA.



Jakerson -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/19/2011 2:03:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gewehr43

Well, less than 1% of the available escorts should be easy to improve upon. At this point the German transports are just practice targets and the air rsupply portion of the game is MIA.


Fairly strong statement since this problem is not even effecting every player.

For example I have never been any problems escorting my air supply missions while playing German side quite contrary I just did 6 air resupply missions last turn each mission having 30-60 escorts and have done it multiple turns now.



heliodorus04 -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/19/2011 5:21:23 PM)

I've had it on in a game and somehow it fixed itself.  I have no idea why, but I think it might have 'repaired' itself when i started using the airbase assignment tool to start moving aircraft rather than back and forth directly from national reserve.  My air war is a little confusing now, but overall I'm kicking butt.

It's not unheard of for me to see the Ju-52s from one army group are available to fly supply to another army group's units, in which case I clearly see why no air escorts are available (the distance from an AGN airbase is too far for the fighters, even though Ju52s can fly it, and AGC air units can't support AGN Ju-52s)



Jakerson -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/19/2011 7:23:10 PM)

Well I use always manual choosing of air groups when I do air supply (pressing shift while marking unit of air supply).This way I can chooce witch air units take part of mission. When there is no fighter available for mission i dont fly them.



Mynok -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/19/2011 11:34:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gewehr43

It's not that I do this as a matter of routine at the start of the turn, I don't. I had to learn this lesson the hard way. The fact that I tried to do it at the start of the turn this time was in order to eliminate anything I may have done from being the problem. If I go ahead now and do my turn with no fighter protection my JU52s will be decimated yet again and need to be rebuilt yet again. When is this next patch comming out to fix fhis? I can't do my turn until it is. Thanks for the heads up that the issue is being addressed.


[&:] So even when you do them at the end of your turn they get intercepted?



Gewehr43 -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/24/2011 4:00:19 AM)

Yes, even at the end of the turn but luckily I have found the fix. It seems escorts for air transports are controled by the ground attack percentages. Increase them and the fighters suddenly show up as being available, and in fact do fly. German losses to Soviet fighters are too high though. IMHO - massive numbers of Me-109s, like 50+, escort the JU-52's and are intercepted by 2-5 Soviet fighters who shoot down a few Me-109's fighters and a few Ju52's and fly away unharmed or lose one plane The airwar side of the game needs work. The Russians are too annoying too early.



Jakerson -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/24/2011 11:14:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gewehr43

Yes, even at the end of the turn but luckily I have found the fix. It seems escort for air transports are controled by the ground attack percentages. Increase them and the fighters suddenly show up as being available, and in fact do fly. German losses to Soviet fighters are too high though. IMHO - massive numbers of Me-109s, like 50+, escort the JU-52's and are intercepted by 2-5 Soviet fighters who shoot down a few Me-109's fighters and a few Ju52's and fly away unharmed or lose one plane The airwar side of the game needs work. The Russians are too annoying too early.


All of those planes you see as losses are not shot down by Soviet air forces if you send massive air formations on fly there are a lot of operational losses simply becouse more planes broke up. Operational losses was major source of losses for all sides simply becouse maintenance teams strugled to keep all planes flying at the pace needed in war. Flying a lot of mission made it impossible to properly maintenance planes witch made them break up in large numbers.

It is also historical that offensive air operations are always more risky than defensive ones. Air transport in middle of hostile territory is offensive air operation. For example in Battle of Britain Luftwaffe suffered staggering losses fact that Luftwaffe had more escort planes than Britain had fighters did not chance that.




Gewehr43 -> RE: JU-52 fighter escorts refuse to fly supply missions? (8/24/2011 12:44:38 PM)

Not trying to come off as a know-it-all but there were huge qualitative differences between the Soviet Air Force and the Luftwaffe at this point of the war that are not reflected enough in this game. There were huge difference between the Soviet Airforce and the RAF in quality also and high losses to German bombers were in large part because the German fighters were not using drop tanks in 1940 and could not stay over the UK for more than 1/2 an hour. If the German fighters can't protect their transports from I15's and I16's there is something wrong. Operational losses not withstanding. Generally speaking Soviet losses tend to be too low and German losses too high. I can see the Soviets wrestling control of the air sometime in 1942 about 1.5 years too early. That's my point.



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