RE: Turn 4: Tolbukhin's counterattack

RE: Turn 4: Tolbukhin's counterattack (Full Version)

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BletchleyGeek -> RE: Turn 4: Tolbukhin's counterattack (9/1/2011 12:32:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: randallw Perhaps this is just a result of game mechanics. When a unit retreats all the pieces of it retreat, though perhaps in real life the elements would not move at just a single time. Did the battle occur with 200-ish German tank crews saying "Ahhhhhh too many ants!" so they retreated in flight? Maybe not, but those infantry and artillery units too enough hits that they didn't hold their ground, then the tanks wouldn't necessarily want to stay on their lonesome, so they would hang around long enough for the infantry and artillery to get some spacing on the attackers, buying time for the rest of the division. Or maybe none of this makes sense, who knows. [:D] Not really. Probably most of those 200 "tanks" were Pz II and early Pz III models, being peppered from sides and front with ATR's as they become engulfed by a mass of Soviet infantry[:)]. And I'm sure not even half of them were destroyed. More like many of them are damaged and will be back in the pool in a couple turns.

fiva55 -> Begin of turn 6 (9/2/2011 1:43:26 PM)
Begin of turn 6, July 24 1941 Southern Sector Clear Weather I usually don't bother with begin of turns screen shot these days, but I thought this was a worthy one: An heavily reinforced 1st Panzer group makes a clean breakthrough towards Cherkassy, though luckily fail to cross the Dnepr. [image]local://upfiles/37788/4B441F8D845F4FEF8BFCDBD15397D9F0.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> End of turn 6 (9/3/2011 3:47:29 PM)
End of turn 6, July 24 1941 Northern Sector Clear Weather The Luga line is nearing it's completion. 27th Army and 24th Army will remain in a forward positions for one more turn, before being repositioned to build fall back lines for the Luga line. 11th Army an 8th Army remain in place to guard the the flank against a possible right hook. 23rd army (Northern Front) is still being build up, most likely it will be used to fortify the city itself. 7th Independent army (Northern Front) is still fighting up north. With just 2 rifle divisions and 3 security divisions, it is doing an admirable job delaying the Fins. [image]local://upfiles/37788/D2EED2CE6FD845C3B0D3846CBB6E1F92.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> End of turn 6 (9/3/2011 3:58:15 PM)
End of turn 6, July 24 1941 Central Sector Clear Weather With the bulk of the German armor in this sector located near Velikie Luki, the weight of my defence has shifted accordingly. 29th Army (Reserve Front) forms the main line of defense, and managed to make some successful counterattacks against the German mobile units. Meanwhile, large parts of 22nd Army (Reserve Front) have been isolated behind enemy lines. Suspiciously so, because most of those divisions got there after "routing" westwards instead of eastwards. Rather than risk more troops rescuing those unreliable troops, the divisions have been detached from 22nd Army HQ and have been ordered to run havoc in the German rear area. [image]local://upfiles/37788/54EE5640121C4998B944B062C0392CC6.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> End of turn 6 (9/3/2011 4:11:28 PM)
End of turn 6, July 24 1941 Southern Sector Clear Weather With a thrust towards Kiev unlikely, parts of Southwestern Front have been shifted south-east. 5th and 26th Army now cover the river banks, while 12th Army forms the final line of the defence of D and Z town. Meanwhile, 38th Army (Kharkov MD) has been positioned to halt any advance towards Poltava. The armies of Southern Front (9th, 19th, 18th, 21st) are positioned in such a way to prevent 1st Panzer group from either directly advancing to D-town, or reaching Z-town through Krivoi Rog. [image]local://upfiles/37788/FDD49F6B3E2149148B02CA68783D4902.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> End of turn 7 (9/4/2011 7:55:11 PM)
End of turn 7, July 31 1941 Northern Sector Clear Weather The Germans have finally reached the Luga line. Seeing the concentration of force arrayed in front of my lines, I must admit that I am not sure whether I can prevent AGN from capturing Leningrad. Still, the die has been cast. Although common sense says I should evacuate all industry (only the KV1 factories have been evacuated so far) and redeploy my forces for better use in the center and south, I intend to slug it out with AGN. In order to replace all the losses I am certain to suffer, north has been prioritized in getting replacements, while center and south will start pulling back in order to minimize losses. [image]local://upfiles/37788/F366A6F01B764CF58425038E78DED7BE.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> End of turn 7 (9/4/2011 8:00:17 PM)
End of turn 7, July 31 1941 Central Sector Clear Weather Having learned the hard lessons to minimize contact with German infantry when mobile units are just behind them, Reserve Front and Western Front have started pulling back. With 4 lines between the German spearhead and Moscow, I am sure the capital will live another day. [image]local://upfiles/37788/1FB4AE4536D44567BD8A8D8EA3B293C0.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> End of turn 7 (9/4/2011 8:06:53 PM)
End of turn 7, July 31 1941 Southern Sector Clear Weather Southwestern Front guards the Dnepr, with 5th Army positioned to counterattack any German bridgehead. Meanwhile, Southern Front slowly pulls back towards the Crimea. I had several opportunities to attack the German spearheads, but for now I will favour retreating in good order. Edit: Is it necessary to evacuate all the t34 factories in Kharkov, or is a certain amount sufficient? [image]local://upfiles/37788/19AB376980A34D00A0E8C5FAA91E78C9.jpg[/image]

BletchleyGeek -> RE: End of turn 7 (9/4/2011 8:13:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fiva55 Edit: Is it necessary to evacuate all the t34 factories in Kharkov, or is a certain amount sufficient? The more T-34's the better. I usually evacuate as much as railcap allows. I don't know what would be the minimum number to evacuate to reach historical production in January 1942. PS: Let me remind you that as soon as Kiev falls, the Kharkov MD will disband leaving any unit you have attached to it under the STAVKA.

fiva55 -> Begin of Turn 8: Force allocation (9/4/2011 8:24:51 PM)
Soviet OOB Men: 4.191.828 Guns: 42.488 Tanks: 5.251 Air: 5.677 Northern Sector Northern Front: 603.347 men 5.854 guns Northwest Front: 532.259 men 5.593 guns Total: 1.135.606 men, 27% of total OOB Central Sector Reserve Front: 317.867 men 3.594 guns Western Front: 495.478 men 5.537 guns Bryansk Front: 133.652 men 1.346 guns Total: 946.997 men, 23% of total OOB Southern Sector Southern Front: 557.012 men 6.119 guns Southwestern Front: 640.166 6.426 guns Southern Ural MD: 133.239 men 1095 guns Total: 1.350.417 men, 32% of total OOB

fiva55 -> RE: End of turn 7 (9/4/2011 8:29:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek The more T-34's the better. I usually evacuate as much as railcap allows. I don't know what would be the minimum number to evacuate to reach historical production in January 1942. PS: Let me remind you that as soon as Kiev falls, the Kharkov MD will disband leaving any unit you have attached to it under the STAVKA. I will try to rail out as much as possible then. Thanks for the reminder about Kharkov MD. Though it seems that after Kharkov MD disbanded (T8), instead of attached to Stavka, 38th A is now attached to Southern Ural MD. Ah well, at least it is the same colour as Southern Front.

fiva55 -> End of turn 8 (9/7/2011 5:55:50 PM)
End of turn 8, August 7 1941 Northern Sector Clear Weather The Luga line is under great pressure. Hoping to divert some of the units going for Leningrad, 11th Army launches a diversionary attack into the German flank. [image]local://upfiles/37788/71F74FDF63DB4B7FBD866414C95EB796.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> RE: End of turn 8 (9/7/2011 6:01:48 PM)
End of turn 8, August 7 1941 Central Sector Clear Weather Suspiciously, the German mobile units in this sector remain well behind the frontline. IMO,there is little point in just fighting it out with German infantry. With many rifle divisions in unready status, another 30-40 miles pull back was ordered to allow the troops some time to rest and refit. [image]local://upfiles/37788/1B76DED4F1D241A79E30FA9704892E4E.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> RE: End of turn 8 (9/7/2011 6:05:17 PM)
End of turn 8, August 7 1941 Southern Sector Clear Weather The Germans managed to establish 4 bridgeheads across the Dnepr, of whom 3 were thrown back by fresh troops of Southwestern Front. A bridghead near Kiev remains, but recon shows no mobile units able to exploit it. [image]local://upfiles/37788/B34D272EDE7340619556D39527E6CE6D.jpg[/image]

Tarhunnas -> RE: End of turn 7 (9/8/2011 9:14:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fiva55 Edit: Is it necessary to evacuate all the t34 factories in Kharkov, or is a certain amount sufficient? Maybe too late now, but here is my take: Evacuating vehicle factories is relatively cheap in terms of rail cap compared with Arm and HI. OTOH the T34 factory will grow back eventually, even if you only get one point out, while any Arm and HI not evacuated are lost forever. Hard call, but if I was hard pressed and had to chose, I would prioritize Arm and HI and settle for evacuating only a part of the T34 factory. Keeping in mind also that Arm is much more important than tanks in eventually defeating the Germans. As the German you fear a well armed rifle corps, but tank corps are just yummy for the Germans!

fiva55 -> RE: End of turn 7 (9/8/2011 5:12:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas OTOH the T34 factory will grow back eventually, even if you only get one point out, while any Arm and HI not evacuated are lost forever. That is good to know, does the same apply to vehicle factories?

Q-Ball -> RE: End of turn 7 (9/8/2011 6:12:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fiva55 quote: ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas OTOH the T34 factory will grow back eventually, even if you only get one point out, while any Arm and HI not evacuated are lost forever. That is good to know, does the same apply to vehicle factories? No; vehicle factories don't grow back. Tarhunnas's advice is good; if you are pressed, just move 1 T-34. It will all grow back in the end. Moving just 1 will only hurt you in 1942, but not after. And, after March 1942, I can't see lacking in Medium tanks, even with lost T-34 production. I would accord VEHICLES a low priority. Vehicles are important for the Soviet effort no question, but if you look at the numbers, I would move ARMAMENTS first. You get 120 Factories at start, and they make 10 per turn; even at 100% production, you get 1,200 per turn. At 50%, you are missing 600 per turn. Meanwhile, Lend Lease in 1943 is 4500 per turn, and 6000 in 1944. Against that, Soviet Vehcile production is just a rounding error. Don't sweat it too much, IMO. ARMAMENTS are everything; you WILL be hurting in this area, particularly in 1.05. Save all you can I am not sure on HEAVY INDUSTRY; it's hard to tell if you have surplus here or not. I think I would prioritize ARM first still, though I haven't been involved in a game where I lost piles of HI.

Redmarkus5 -> RE: End of turn 7 (9/8/2011 6:21:08 PM)
Nice ARR. Good to see you playing with a historical style - linear defense in depth - and no checker board :)

fiva55 -> End of turn 9 (9/16/2011 5:06:43 PM)
End of turn 9, August 14 1941 Northern Sector Clear Weather Updated to 1.05 Having left the western part of the Luga line weakly defended on purpose, I expected the Germans to breach the lines at that location, hopefully leaving them vulnerable to counter attacks by the refitting divisions of Northwestern Front. What I did not anticipate, was Sillyflower making a second thrust straight through the center of my lines, thus ensuring that 28th Army became isolated. Though I managed to temporarily break the pocket, I fully expect that the Germans will be able to close it again, this time permanently. This setback meant that I had to divert several divisions originally intended to reinforce the central sector to this area. Still, an impressive looking carpet has now been formed, though the coming turn will show if it is effective. [image]local://upfiles/37788/5D33280B990B432CBC372AA654ED6A6F.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> End of turn 9 (9/16/2011 5:25:17 PM)
End of turn 9, August 14 1941 Central Sector Clear Weather Updated to 1.05 The previous turns saw the the Soviet troops in this sector retreating without a fight. This was mainly to preserve troop strength in this area, so that the bulk of replacements could be concentrated in the north. Now, with the northern sector almost up to full strength, and Germans in this sector just 100 miles from Moscow, it is finally time to make a stand. There is only one problem. Though I feel confident that I have enough troops to swamp any advance by the relatively low number of German mobile units in this sector, as of yet, no panzer has been seen in the front, forcing me to gamble how to distribute my forces. As it is, I have chosen to concentrate the bulk of my forces in the area of Moscow and south of Moscow, leaving the approach route to Kalinin defended by just one army. [image]local://upfiles/37788/AA22AD891E05413582342632A5D9FFF2.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> RE: End of turn 9 (9/16/2011 5:30:34 PM)
End of turn 9, August 14 1941 Southern Sector Clear Weather Updated to 1.05 It seems that most of 1st PzGroup has managed to cross the Dnepr. Currently though, the only armament factories remaining in this sector are in Stalino and the area beyond. Should I manage to delay the Germans for a few more turns, I will be able to safely evacuate those. [image]local://upfiles/37788/F0353F01124A4D20B0248665A4413911.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> Begin of turn 10: OOB and Losses (9/17/2011 3:30:03 PM)
Begin of turn 10, August 21 1941 Clear Weather OOB and Losses [image]local://upfiles/37788/D5756AF300E14E1BB7708DE821586035.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> Begin of turn 10: Frontline overview (9/17/2011 3:37:41 PM)
Begin of turn 10, August 21 1941 Clear Weather Front line overview Some highlights: 1)In the north, 4th Pz Group progress seems to be temporarily stalled 2)In the center, all of Kaluga's industry has been trapped. Moscow is in dire straits. 3)In the south, 1st Pz Group managed to break through my lines. Strong soviet units in the vicinity should give an excellent opportunity to counter attack though. [image]local://upfiles/37788/92AD6A3FB8AB474CAB111A34F2BEA189.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> Turn 10 preview (9/18/2011 5:54:50 PM)
Turn 10 preview Kharkov I had hoped to finish the turn this weekend, for I won't be able to access my copy of the game until mid next week. Unfortunately, things came up, and I was only able to partly complete the turn. So here is a short preview, I will leave it up to your imagination what happened. [image]local://upfiles/37788/02C4AEF79E1245F08B59416CF98A572F.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> End of turn 10 (9/20/2011 5:01:39 PM)
Begin of Turn 10, August 21 1941 Northern Sector Clear Weather Unfortunately, there was no way to rescue 28th Army. Instead, Northern and Northwestern Front remain largely defensive this turn, content to let the Germans come to us. [image]local://upfiles/37788/FEA7BCECA4AC49D78DFEF98305125880.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> End of turn 10 (9/20/2011 5:06:32 PM)
Begin of Turn 10, August 21 1941 Central Sector Clear Weather The central sector has been largely neglected in favour of the north and south, preventing me from really posing a threat to the German spearheads. Still, a panzer division, guarding the flanks of the German advance, was forced to retreat, allowing us to cut off tip of the spearhead. [image]local://upfiles/37788/FA390035F3144F119AFA77E955E2615D.jpg[/image]

fiva55 -> RE: End of turn 10 (9/20/2011 5:15:49 PM)
Begin of Turn 10, August 21 1941 Southern Sector Clear Weather Although the Germans made a clean break through my lines, a price was paid. Their strongest units where used for the initial attack, forcing them to use their weaker units to guard the flanks of their advance afterwards. That would not have been a problem, had I not concentrated the strongest units of the Red Army in this sector. As it is, Southern and Southwestern Front where in the perfect position to launch multiple counter attacks, which resulted in the rout of 2 panzer divisions and 2 SS motorized divisions, and the isolation of the final SS motorized division. [image]local://upfiles/37788/9C96F85CBBB14CAF823AFDFEFE0D98EA.jpg[/image]

Ketza -> RE: End of turn 10 (9/20/2011 5:23:32 PM)
Ouch!

Baelfiin -> RE: End of turn 10 (9/20/2011 5:23:46 PM)
Very Nice!!!!! [&o] Those mobile units are going to be out of your hair for a turn or two at least, And if he cant punch a hole to the Lone Ranger SS division, That one will be gone for 6 or 7 turns.

fiva55 -> RE: End of turn 10 (9/20/2011 9:17:09 PM)
There is no point in playing timid. Though the the Germans have the strategic initiative in 1941, counter attacks are still very much possible. This is especially true in the south. Although the clear terrain favours panzer drives, it also means that they are very vulnerable to counter attacks, after they are worn out after a long drive. To take advantage of this however, you need to create some depth in your defence, or you won't have the MP to reach the Germans.

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